Over the course of her illustrious career, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has become an icon in both history and popular culture. The second female to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court, RBG was known for her gumption, her tenacity and her ability to turn both hearts and minds in the direction of compassion. Lovingly nicknamed "Notorious RBG" after rap artist Notorious B.I.G, the longstanding champion of women was also, however, known in closer circles as a great lover of music—opera in particular.

A sold-out speaker at Glimmerglass Opera Festival, organizer of Opera And The Law talks, and an avid supporter of numerous opera companies over the course of her lifetime, RBG was so fond of the genre that her children would create gifts revolving around opera in one form or another. In 2011, RBG’s son James "Jim" Ginsburg, record producer and founder of Cedille Records, and daughter Jane, a Columbia Law School professor, commissioned three opera songs to be written in their mother's honor for her 80th birthday in 2013. Several years later, to celebrate the 25 Year Anniversary of RBG’s appointment to the Supreme Court, James and his wife, composer/soprano Patrice Michaels, released an album entitled Notorious RBG In Song, which was released in June of 2018. Several individuals involved with this classical compendium, including James and Michaels, spoke with GRAMMY.com about RBG’s love of opera and the story behind the album.

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"It all began with one song. I was one of three female composers who were each invited to write a song based on a text that was directly linked to Justice Ginsburg for her 80th birthday," Michaels tells us. Originally intended as a standalone song, Michaels became deeply inspired while premiering the three works in her mother-in-law’s honor. "I thought to myself, wow! This is such a beautiful way to glimpse some of the chapters in her life! I think I’d like to create a coherent chronology of those chapters in song." 

With RBG’s permission, Michaels went to work studying her mother-in-law’s personal materials in the Library of Congress. A good deal of research and many conversations with her biographers later, Michaels had the documents she wanted to set to music. At first, her intention was only to make an archival recording for herself. However, James was convinced that his wife’s song cycle needed to be heard. "My nosy husband had to poke his nose in and say ‘Oh, don’t you want me to come to the sessions?’ and it just grew from there."

Patrice Michaels, Brenda Rae, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, July 2017
Photo courtesy of the Ginsburg family

The final product, Notorious RBG In Song, features a collection of classical songs inspired by the beloved Supreme Court Justice herself. Opening with Michaels’ dynamic and thoughtfully researched 37-minute song cycle, The Long View: A Portrait Of Ruth Bader Ginsburg In Nine Songs, the album concludes with three other RBG-associated songs by women composers—Lori Laitman, Vivian Fung and Stacy Garrop—and an excerpt from the award-winning comedic opera, Scalia/Ginsburg, by Derrick Wang. A rollercoaster of emotions, Notorious RBG In Song is full of both laugh-out-loud and tearful moments. For laughs, listeners should turn up the volume on "The Elevator Thief" and "You Are Searching in Vain for a Bright-Line Solution." For a good cry, turn to "Celia," a tribute to RBG’s mother, and Garrop’s contribution "My Dearest Ruth," the text of which is based on Marty Ginsburg’s final letter to his wife. "When performed live, there is not a dry eye in the house," James says of the latter two songs.

"The convoluted way in which [Justice Ginsburg] had to achieve her brilliant goals affected many people along the way—especially women."
—Patrice Michaels, RBG’s daughter-in-law

Michaels' song cycle, the catalyst for the album itself, paints colorful micro-portraits of moments in RBG’s life that only those close to her knew about. When asked about their favorite songs in the cycle, Michaels and James have different answers. For Michaels, the one that comes to mind is song number nine, the last in the cycle, which encapsulates RBG’s attitude regarding the qualities a president should look for in a Supreme Court Justice. "It was already very poignant for me to write, and now I don’t know if I’ll be able to even think about it without crying," Michaels shares. As for James, he has a special fondness for "On Working Together," which is told through the eyes of his father. "I hear my father’s voice and humor captured so perfectly in that song," he reflects. The song he speaks of, which happens to be the subject of the 2018 Hollywood film On The Basis of Sex, looks back on the only legal case Ruth and Martin Ginsburg worked on together. "Any remembrances of Dad are greatly appreciated, and music can do it in a way that nothing else can."

When asked if his mother’s love of music had an impact on him becoming a classical record producer, James immediately replies, "Oh most certainly, yes." The Ginsburg household was a musical one, featuring a piano that RBG would play, a record player and a very large vinyl collection. "There was always music playing in the house," he recalls. "We had all of the classical greatest hits, and by age seven, I was already collecting my own LPs." In addition to the household music scene, Ruth and Marty also exposed their children to music outside the home. "Growing up they would take me to orchestras, including the Young People’s Concerts of the NY Philharmonic, which, back then, Michael Tilson Thomas was conducting," Ginsburg recalls. Within no time, young James was taking in the Metropolitan Opera with the same enthusiasm as his parents.

Jane Ginsburg as DJ for University of Chicago’s campus radio station 
Photo courtesy of the Ginsburg family

Upon receiving praise for her heavy research and attention to detail composing The Long View, Michaels immediately gives credit to the Ginsburg family. "Well, think about what family I’m living in!" she remarks with a laugh. "If there’s anybody that brings out this attention to detail and real consideration of bringing your best effort to everything, it would be these people. It was a great gift for me to marry into that attitude." Equally humble are composers Derrick Wang and Stacy Garrop, both of whom also spoke with GRAMMY.com. Wang, whose opera was inspired by the true story of Justice Ginsburg’s and Justice Scalia’s unlikely friendship, was moved by the Justices' shared love of opera when he began the project. "In giving me her blessing to share her friendship with Justice Scalia through the opera Scalia/Ginsburg, Justice Ginsburg changed my life—and I am deeply grateful to have been a part of hers."

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As for Garrop, she had one of the most challenging tasks of all: setting Marty Ginsburg’s final letter to his wife to music. "It’s a beautiful love letter from a husband with late-stage cancer to his wife. How could I write something so personal without meeting him?" Garrop remembers thinking. But James had an idea of how Garrop could, in fact, get to know his father. "Jim gave me a cookbook, Chef Supreme, which was created by the associate spouses of the Supreme Court." The cookbook, which had numerous memories and personal accounts about Marty in between the recipes, was exactly what she needed to get a sense of his character. "It was clear what a warm, caring person he was—that there was always a glimmer in his eye."

Ruth Bader Ginsburg with husband Martin Ginsburg in 1998
Photo by Annie Groer/The Washington Post via Getty Images

"What a treat it has been to watch you progress to the very top of the legal world."
—Marty Ginsburg, "My Dearest Ruth," 2010

Ruth Bader Ginsburg was truly passionate about bridging the gap between the music world and the legal world, bringing law to the attention of musicians and bringing opera to the attention of lawmakers and judges. In addition to her Opera And The Law talks, which she gave at opera festivals and classical radio stations like Chicago’s WFMT, RBG would bring opera to the courts as well. "She was instrumental in the growth of the song cycle. As Patrice was writing these songs, one-by-one mom would find unexpected occasions for where to premiere them, like at the Second Circuit Judicial Conference," James says, chuckling. Patrice adds, "If anyone had told me 20 years ago that I would be singing for a bunch of lawyers at a judicial conference I’d have said, ‘Really?!'" 

Similarly, Derrick Wang was invited to present excerpts from his opera, Scalia/Ginsburg, at the Supreme Court in June of 2013. "It was an honor…and afterward, I got to visit [her] chambers where she and I had a very enjoyable chat about opera and constitutional law," Wang recalls of his first experience meeting RBG. Later, RBG presented further opportunities for Wang to share his opera in unexpected settings, including at the Library of Congress.

"When I am at an opera, I get totally carried away. I don’t think about the case next week or the brief that I am in the middle of. I’m overwhelmed by the beauty of the music, the drama. The sound of the human voice is like an electric current going through me."
—Ruth Bader Ginsburg, CNN Films, 2018

Over the course of her lifetime, RBG emboldened and empowered women and men across the nation to stand up to gender inequality. Meanwhile, she herself was emboldened and empowered by music. One lesson that all music enthusiasts can take from RBG is that we should allow ourselves to escape from work and into music because it will, in turn, help us thrive. "Mom always talked about how well music—opera—could take her out of her work," James explains. "Her mind was always on her next brief or argument or dissent, but opera would take her out of that." At the same time, RBG’s relationship with opera reconciled some of the empathetic responses generated by her work by giving her room to empathize with the characters through music. "It brings to mind a Peter Sellars quote," Michaels adds with a smile in her voice. "Opera is really about justice; people seeking justice in their own personal relationships, and people seeking justice in the larger world."

How the Loss of Justice Ginsburg Impacts Music Creators

As the end of his life approaches in 1957, legendary Mexican painter Diego Rivera feels lonely and unprepared for his transition to the other side. On November 2 — the Day of the Dead — he summons the spirit of his wife, the prodigiously gifted Frida Kahlo, and asks her to return so that they may travel together to the underworld. Embittered by trauma and past betrayals, Frida rejects him at first — but then changes her mind and reconnects with the beauty of the art that she had left behind.

This deeply poetic allegory is the narrative threadline that runs through "El Último Sueño de Frida & Diego," the new opera by composer Gabriela Lena Frank with a libretto by Pulitzer winning playwright Nilo Cruz. Praised by The New Yorker when it premiered in San Diego last year, the show — which translates to "Frida & Diego's Last Dream" — is playing at the LA Opera from Nov. 18 through Dec. 9.

"I felt very fortunate when I received Nilo's libretto and saw that his opera was filled with so much dramatic potential," says Frank during a break from rehearsals. "Will Frida agree to go back and see Diego? Will she be able to paint again? Will she reconcile in any way with him? All these critical questions have been carefully set up — and then answered — by Nilo."

In visual terms, the sumptuous stage design mirrors the passionate cosmovision of Kahlo and Rivera. It also avoids falling into cultural clichés.

"The first thing that comes to mind when you think of Diego and Frida are those strong primary colors, and we definitely didn't want to disappoint," says Lorena Maza, who directed the opera. "That said, we felt the need to avoid the excessive use of color. We decided to favor a monochromatic palette, as an artistic statement."

During the first act, the underworld of Mexican mythology known as Mictlán is represented with the use of orange.

"We thought of marigold, the flower known in Mexico as cempasúchil and used widely during the Día de los Muertos festivities," explains Maza. "It's the orange of candlelight and celebration. In the second act we switch to blue — the same intense cobalt shade that you find in the walls of la casa azul, Frida's home in Coayacán. We even reproduced one of Diego's murals — Sueño de una Tarde Dominical en la Alameda Central (Dream of a Sunday Afternoon at Alameda Central Park) — with its distinct pastel tonalities."

Frank's score imbues the opera's trance-like aesthetic with layers of lush melodies and intriguing orchestrations. The music is wickedly playful at times, especially when it involves the character of Catrina, the ghoulish keeper of the dead who negotiates both the return of Frida and Diego's inevitable departure. But it also delves into intense, somber emotions — like the scene where a chorus of spirits and villagers chant the word agonía (agony) as Frida writhes in pain, remembering the unbearable amount of physical suffering that she endured during her lifetime.

"I was tasked with the job of conveying three different worlds," Frank explains. "The world of the living, the world of the dead, and, for a brief segment, the world of art. It was important for me to devise unusual combinations of sounds. I was given a harp and a celesta, and combined them with unexpected instruments like the piccolo, to create eerie effects."

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The composer, who has evoked her Peruvian heritage in previous works, also uses the hypnotic strains of the marimba as a direct link between the score and the libretto's Latin American scope.

"To my ear, the marimba is one of the main instruments in Central American music," she says. "I have one at home — we pianists think that we can play the marimba, when we really can't. But its sound is very familiar to me. The marimba is in almost every scene of the opera, even if you can't recognize it."

The appearance of an opera that draws directly from Latino culture — both visual and musical — hasn't gone unnoticed among California audiences (so far, "El Último Sueño" has been staged in San Diego, San Francisco and Los Angeles). According to director Maza, about 30% of the people who attended a performance went to the opera for the first time in their lives.

"I still believe in the power of classic art formats," she says. "We are competing with the media madness of platforms and apps, but when the opera tickets are affordable, the hall fills up with young people. I'm especially inspired by the fact that this is a Spanish language opera. Latinos can have access to a work of art that speaks about their own reality — something that moves them and makes them think."

Maza, a college professor in her native Mexico, believes that the democratization of culture is of the essence, now more than ever.

"I worked on this because of my conviction, passion and vocation," she emphasizes. "I believe in the power of art to move the soul and inspire reflection. It may sound absurd, but in this day and age, staging an opera feels almost like a subversive act."

Meet The Gen Z Women Claiming Space In The Regional Mexican Music Movement

Updated Friday Oct. 13, 2023 to include info about Kendrick Lamar's most recent GRAMMY wins, as of the 2023 GRAMMYs.

A GRAMMY veteran these days, Kendrick Lamar has won 17 GRAMMYs and has received 47 GRAMMY nominations overall. A sizable chunk of his trophies came from the 58th annual GRAMMY Awards in 2016, when he walked away with five — including his first-ever win in the Best Rap Album category.

This installment of GRAMMY Rewind turns back the clock to 2016, revisiting Lamar's acceptance speech upon winning Best Rap Album for To Pimp A Butterfly. Though Lamar was alone on stage, he made it clear that he wouldn't be at the top of his game without the help of a broad support system. 

"First off, all glory to God, that's for sure," he said, kicking off a speech that went on to thank his parents, who he described as his "those who gave me the responsibility of knowing, of accepting the good with the bad."

Looking for more GRAMMYs news? The 2024 GRAMMY nominations are here!

He also extended his love and gratitude to his fiancée, Whitney Alford, and shouted out his Top Dawg Entertainment labelmates. Lamar specifically praised Top Dawg's CEO, Anthony Tiffith, for finding and developing raw talent that might not otherwise get the chance to pursue their musical dreams.

"We'd never forget that: Taking these kids out of the projects, out of Compton, and putting them right here on this stage, to be the best that they can be," Lamar — a Compton native himself — continued, leading into an impassioned conclusion spotlighting some of the cornerstone rap albums that came before To Pimp a Butterfly.

"Hip-hop. Ice Cube. This is for hip-hop," he said. "This is for Snoop Dogg, Doggystyle. This is for Illmatic, this is for Nas. We will live forever. Believe that."

To Pimp a Butterfly singles "Alright" and "These Walls" earned Lamar three more GRAMMYs that night, the former winning Best Rap Performance and Best Rap Song and the latter taking Best Rap/Sung Collaboration (the song features Bilal, Anna Wise and Thundercat). He also won Best Music Video for the remix of Taylor Swift's "Bad Blood." 

Lamar has since won Best Rap Album two more times, taking home the golden gramophone in 2018 for his blockbuster LP DAMN., and in 2023 for his bold fifth album, Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers.

Watch Lamar's full acceptance speech above, and check back at GRAMMY.com every Friday for more GRAMMY Rewind episodes. 

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It's rare that a genre can be traced back to a single artist or group, but for funk, that was James Brown. The Godfather of Soul coined the phrase and style of playing known as "on the one," where the first downbeat is emphasized, instead of the typical second and fourth beats in pop, soul and other styles. As David Cheal eloquently explains, playing on the one "left space for phrases and riffs, often syncopated around the beat, creating an intricate, interlocking grid which could go on and on." You know a funky bassline when you hear it; its fat chords beg your body to get up and groove.

Brown's 1965 classic, "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag," became one of the first funk hits, and has been endlessly sampled and covered over the years, along with his other groovy tracks. Of course, many other funk acts followed in the '60s, and the genre thrived in the '70s and '80s as the disco craze came and went, and the originators of hip-hop and house music created new music from funk and disco's strong, flexible bones built for dancing.

Legendary funk bassist Bootsy Collins learned the power of the one from playing in Brown's band, and brought it to George Clinton, who created P-funk, an expansive, Afrofuturistic, psychedelic exploration of funk with his various bands and projects, including Parliament-Funkadelic. Both Collins and Clinton remain active and funkin', and have offered their timeless grooves to collabs with younger artists, including Kali Uchis, Silk Sonic, and Omar Apollo; and Kendrick Lamar, Flying Lotus, and Thundercat, respectively.

In the 1980s, electro-funk was born when artists like Afrika Bambaataa, Man Parrish, and Egyptian Lover began making futuristic beats with the Roland TR-808 drum machine — often with robotic vocals distorted through a talk box. A key distinguishing factor of electro-funk is a de-emphasis on vocals, with more phrases than choruses and verses. The sound influenced contemporaneous hip-hop, funk and electronica, along with acts around the globe, while current acts like Chromeo, DJ Stingray, and even Egyptian Lover himself keep electro-funk alive and well.

Today, funk lives in many places, with its heavy bass and syncopated grooves finding way into many nooks and crannies of music. There's nu-disco and boogie funk, nodding back to disco bands with soaring vocals and dance floor-designed instrumentation. G-funk continues to influence Los Angeles hip-hop, with innovative artists like Dam-Funk and Channel Tres bringing the funk and G-funk, into electro territory. Funk and disco-centered '70s revival is definitely having a moment, with acts like Ghost Funk Orchestra and Parcels, while its sparkly sprinklings can be heard in pop from Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, and, in full "Soul Train" character, Silk Sonic. There are also acts making dreamy, atmospheric music with a solid dose of funk, such as Khruangbin’s global sonic collage.

There are many bands that play heavily with funk, creating lush grooves designed to get you moving. Read on for a taste of five current modern funk and nu-disco artists making band-led uptempo funk built for the dance floor. Be sure to press play on the Spotify playlist above, and check out GRAMMY.com's playlist on Apple Music, Amazon Music and Pandora.

Say She She

Aptly self-described as "discodelic soul," Brooklyn-based seven-piece Say She She make dreamy, operatic funk, led by singer-songwriters Nya Gazelle Brown, Piya Malik and Sabrina Mileo Cunningham. Their '70s girl group-inspired vocal harmonies echo, sooth and enchant as they cover poignant topics with feminist flair.

While they’ve been active in the New York scene for a few years, they’ve gained wider acclaim for the irresistible music they began releasing this year, including their debut album, Prism. Their 2022 debut single "Forget Me Not" is an ode to ground-breaking New York art collective Guerilla Girls, and "Norma" is their protest anthem in response to the news that Roe vs. Wade could be (and was) overturned. The band name is a nod to funk legend Nile Rodgers, from the "Le freak, c'est chi" exclamation in Chic's legendary tune "Le Freak."

Moniquea

Moniquea's unique voice oozes confidence, yet invites you in to dance with her to the super funky boogie rhythms. The Pasadena, California artist was raised on funk music; her mom was in a cover band that would play classics like Aretha Franklin’s "Get It Right" and Gladys Knight’s "Love Overboard." Moniquea released her first boogie funk track at 20 and, in 2011, met local producer XL Middelton — a bonafide purveyor of funk. She's been a star artist on his MoFunk Records ever since, and they've collabed on countless tracks, channeling West Coast energy with a heavy dose of G-funk, sunny lyrics and upbeat, roller disco-ready rhythms.

Her latest release is an upbeat nod to classic West Coast funk, produced by Middleton, and follows her February 2022 groovy, collab-filled album, On Repeat.

Shiro Schwarz

Shiro Schwarz is a Mexico City-based duo, consisting of Pammela Rojas and Rafael Marfil, who helped establish a modern funk scene in the richly creative Mexican metropolis. On "Electrify" — originally released in 2016 on Fat Beats Records and reissued in 2021 by MoFunk — Shiro Schwarz's vocals playfully contrast each other, floating over an insistent, upbeat bassline and an '80s throwback electro-funk rhythm with synth flourishes.

Their music manages to be both nostalgic and futuristic — and impossible to sit still to. 2021 single "Be Kind" is sweet, mellow and groovy, perfect chic lounge funk. Shiro Schwarz’s latest track, the joyfully nostalgic "Hey DJ," is a collab with funkstress Saucy Lady and U-Key.

L'Impératrice

L'Impératrice (the empress in French) are a six-piece Parisian group serving an infectiously joyful blend of French pop, nu-disco, funk and psychedelia. Flore Benguigui's vocals are light and dreamy, yet commanding of your attention, while lyrics have a feminist touch.

During their energetic live sets, L'Impératrice members Charles de Boisseguin and Hagni Gwon (keys), David Gaugué (bass), Achille Trocellier (guitar), and Tom Daveau (drums) deliver extended instrumental jam sessions to expand and connect their music. Gaugué emphasizes the thick funky bass, and Benguigui jumps around the stage while sounding like an angel. L’Impératrice’s latest album, 2021’s Tako Tsubo, is a sunny, playful French disco journey.

Franc Moody

Franc Moody's bio fittingly describes their music as "a soul funk and cosmic disco sound." The London outfit was birthed by friends Ned Franc and Jon Moody in the early 2010s, when they were living together and throwing parties in North London's warehouse scene. In 2017, the group grew to six members, including singer and multi-instrumentalist Amber-Simone.

Their music feels at home with other electro-pop bands like fellow Londoners Jungle and Aussie act Parcels. While much of it is upbeat and euphoric, Franc Moody also dips into the more chilled, dreamy realm, such as the vibey, sultry title track from their recently released Into the Ether.

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Living Legends is a series that spotlights icons in music still going strong today. This week, GRAMMY.com spoke with Billy Idol about his latest EP,  Cage, and continuing to rock through decades of changing tastes.

Billy Idol is a true rock 'n' roll survivor who has persevered through cultural shifts and personal struggles. While some may think of Idol solely for "Rebel Yell" and "White Wedding," the singer's musical influences span genres and many of his tunes are less turbo-charged than his '80s hits would belie.  

Idol first made a splash in the latter half of the '70s with the British punk band Generation X. In the '80s, he went on to a solo career combining rock, pop, and punk into a distinct sound that transformed him and his musical partner, guitarist Steve Stevens, into icons. They have racked up multiple GRAMMY nominations, in addition to one gold, one double platinum, and four platinum albums thanks to hits like "Cradle Of Love," "Flesh For Fantasy," and "Eyes Without A Face." 

But, unlike many legacy artists, Idol is anything but a relic. Billy continues to produce vital Idol music by collaborating with producers and songwriters — including Miley Cyrus — who share his forward-thinking vision. He will play a five-show Vegas residency in November, and filmmaker Jonas Akerlund is working on a documentary about Idol’s life. 

His latest release is Cage, the second in a trilogy of annual four-song EPs. The title track is a classic Billy Idol banger expressing the desire to free himself from personal constraints and live a better life. Other tracks on Cage incorporate metallic riffing and funky R&B grooves. 

Idol continues to reckon with his demons — they both grappled with addiction during the '80s — and the singer is open about those struggles on the record and the page. (Idol's 2014 memoir Dancing With Myself, details a 1990 motorcycle accident that nearly claimed a leg, and how becoming a father steered him to reject hard drugs. "Bitter Taste," from his last EP, The Roadside, reflects on surviving the accident.)

Although Idol and Stevens split in the late '80s — the skilled guitarist fronted Steve Stevens & The Atomic Playboys, and collaborated with Michael Jackson, Rick Ocasek, Vince Neil, and Harold Faltermeyer (on the GRAMMY-winning "Top Gun Anthem") —  their common history and shared musical bond has been undeniable. The duo reunited in 2001 for an episode of "VH1 Storytellers" and have been back in the saddle for two decades. Their union remains one of the strongest collaborations in rock 'n roll history.

While there is recognizable personnel and a distinguishable sound throughout a lot of his work, Billy Idol has always pushed himself to try different things. Idol discusses his musical journey, his desire to constantly move forward, and the strong connection that he shares with Stevens. 

Steve has said that you like to mix up a variety of styles, yet everyone assumes you're the "Rebel Yell"/"White Wedding" guy. But if they really listen to your catalog, it's vastly different.

Yeah, that's right. With someone like Steve Stevens, and then back in the day Keith Forsey producing... [Before that] Generation X actually did move around inside punk rock. We didn't stay doing just the Ramones two-minute music. We actually did a seven-minute song. [Laughs]. We did always mix things up. 

Then when I got into my solo career, that was the fun of it. With someone like Steve, I knew what he could do. I could see whatever we needed to do, we could nail it. The world was my oyster musically. 

"Cage" is a classic-sounding Billy Idol rocker, then "Running From The Ghost" is almost metal, like what the Devil's Playground album was like back in the mid-2000s. "Miss Nobody" comes out of nowhere with this pop/R&B flavor. What inspired that?

We really hadn't done anything like that since something like "Flesh For Fantasy" [which] had a bit of an R&B thing about it. Back in the early days of Billy Idol, "Hot In The City" and "Mony Mony" had girls [singing] on the backgrounds. 

We always had a bit of R&B really, so it was actually fun to revisit that. We just hadn't done anything really quite like that for a long time. That was one of the reasons to work with someone like Sam Hollander [for the song "Rita Hayworth"] on The Roadside. We knew we could go [with him] into an R&B world, and he's a great songwriter and producer. That's the fun of music really, trying out these things and seeing if you can make them stick. 

I listen to new music by veteran artists and debate that with some people. I'm sure you have those fans that want their nostalgia, and then there are some people who will embrace the newer stuff. Do you find it’s a challenge to reach people with new songs?

Obviously, what we're looking for is, how do we somehow have one foot in the past and one foot into the future? We’ve got the best of all possible worlds because that has been the modus operandi of Billy Idol. 

You want to do things that are true to you, and you don't just want to try and do things that you're seeing there in the charts today. I think that we're achieving it with things like "Running From The Ghost" and "Cage" on this new EP. I think we’re managing to do both in a way. 

**Obviously, "Running From The Ghost" is about addiction, all the stuff that you went through, and in "Cage" you’re talking about  freeing yourself from a lot of personal shackles. Was there any one moment in your life that made you really thought I have to not let this weigh me down anymore?**

I mean, things like the motorcycle accident I had, that was a bit of a wake up call way back. It was 32 years ago. But there were things like that, years ago, that gradually made me think about what I was doing with my life. I didn't want to ruin it, really. I didn't want to throw it away, and it made [me] be less cavalier. 

I had to say to myself, about the drugs and stuff, that I've been there and I've done it. There’s no point in carrying on doing it. You couldn't get any higher. You didn't want to throw your life away casually, and I was close to doing that. It took me a bit of time, but then gradually I was able to get control of myself to a certain extent [with] drugs and everything. And I think Steve's done the same thing. We're on a similar path really, which has been great because we're in the same boat in terms of lyrics and stuff. 

So a lot of things like that were wake up calls. Even having grandchildren and just watching my daughter enlarging her family and everything; it just makes you really positive about things and want to show a positive side to how you're feeling, about where you're going. We've lived with the demons so long, we've found a way to live with them. We found a way to be at peace with our demons, in a way. Maybe not completely, but certainly to where we’re enjoying what we do and excited about it.

[When writing] "Running From The Ghost" it was easy to go, what was the ghost for us? At one point, we were very drug addicted in the '80s. And Steve in particular is super sober [now]. I mean, I still vape pot and stuff. I don’t know how he’s doing it, but it’s incredible. All I want to be able to do is have a couple of glasses of wine at a restaurant or something. I can do that now.

I think working with people that are super talented, you just feel confident. That is a big reason why you open up and express yourself more because you feel comfortable with what's around you.

Did you watch Danny Boyle's recent Sex Pistols mini-series?

I did, yes.

You had a couple of cameos; well, an actor who portrayed you did. How did you react to it? How accurate do you think it was in portraying that particular time period?

I love Jonesy’s book, I thought his book was incredible. It's probably one of the best bio books really. It was incredible and so open. I was looking forward to that a lot.

It was as if [the show] kind of stayed with Steve [Jones’ memoir] about halfway through, and then departed from it. [John] Lydon, for instance, was never someone I ever saw acting out; he's more like that today. I never saw him do something like jump up in the room and run around going crazy. The only time I saw him ever do that was when they signed the recording deal with Virgin in front of Buckingham Palace. Whereas Sid Vicious was always acting out; he was always doing something in a horrible way or shouting at someone. I don't remember John being like that. I remember him being much more introverted.

But then I watched interviews with some of the actors about coming to grips with the parts they were playing. And they were saying, we knew punk rock happened but just didn't know any of the details. So I thought well, there you go. If ["Pistol" is]  informing a lot of people who wouldn't know anything about punk rock, maybe that's what's good about it.

Maybe down the road John Lydon will get the chance to do John's version of the Pistols story. Maybe someone will go a lot deeper into it and it won't be so surface. But maybe you needed this just to get people back in the flow.

We had punk and metal over here in the States, but it feels like England it was legitimately more dangerous. British society was much more rigid.

It never went [as] mega in America. It went big in England. It exploded when the Pistols did that interview with [TV host Bill] Grundy, that lorry truck driver put his boot through his own TV, and all the national papers had "the filth and the fury" [headlines].

We went from being unknown to being known overnight. We waited a year, Generation X. We even told them [record labels] no for nine months to a year. Every record company wanted their own punk rock group. So it went really mega in England, and it affected the whole country – the style, the fashions, everything. I mean, the Ramones were massive in England. Devo had a No. 1 song [in England] with "Satisfaction" in '77. Actually, Devo was as big as or bigger than the Pistols.

You were ahead of the pop-punk thing that happened in the late '90s, and a lot of it became tongue-in-cheek by then. It didn't have the same sense of rebelliousness as the original movement. It was more pop.

It had become a style. There was a famous book in England called Revolt Into Style — and that's what had happened, a revolt that turned into style which then they were able to duplicate in their own way. Even recently, Billie Joe [Armstrong] did his own version of "Gimme Some Truth," the Lennon song we covered way back in 1977.

When we initially were making [punk] music, it hadn't become accepted yet. It was still dangerous and turned into a style that people were used to. We were still breaking barriers.

You have a band called Generation Sex with Steve Jones and Paul Cook. I assume you all have an easier time playing Pistols and Gen X songs together now and not worrying about getting spit on like back in the '70s?

Yeah, definitely. When I got to America I told the group I was putting it together, "No one spits at the audience."

We had five years of being spat on [in the UK], and it was revolting. And they spat at you if they liked you. If they didn't like it they smashed your gear up. One night, I remember I saw blood on my T-shirt, and I think Joe Strummer got meningitis when spit went in his mouth.

You had to go through a lot to become successful, it wasn't like you just kind of got up there and did a couple of gigs. I don't think some young rock bands really get that today.

With punk going so mega in England, we definitely got a leg up. We still had a lot of work to get where we got to, and rightly so because you find out that you need to do that. A lot of groups in the old days would be together three to five years before they ever made a record, and that time is really important. In a way, what was great about punk rock for me was it was very much a learning period. I really learned a lot [about] recording music and being in a group and even writing songs.

Then when I came to America, it was a flow, really. I also really started to know what I wanted Billy Idol to be. It took me a little bit, but I kind of knew what I wanted Billy Idol to be. And even that took a while to let it marinate.

You and Miley Cyrus have developed a good working relationship in the last several years. How do you think her fans have responded to you, and your fans have responded to her?

I think they're into it. It's more the record company that she had didn't really get "Night Crawling"— it was one of the best songs on Plastic Hearts, and I don't think they understood that. They wanted to go with Dua Lipa, they wanted to go with the modern, young acts, and I don't think they realized that that song was resonating with her fans. Which is a shame really because, with Andrew Watt producing, it's a hit song.

But at the same time, I enjoyed doing it. It came out really good and it's very Billy Idol. In fact, I think it’s more Billy Idol than Miley Cyrus. I think it shows you where Andrew Watt was. He was excited about doing a Billy Idol track. She's fun to work with. She’s a really great person and she works at her singing — I watched her rehearsing for the Super Bowl performance she gave. She rehearsed all Saturday morning, all Saturday afternoon, and Sunday morning and it was that afternoon. I have to admire her fortitude. She really cares.

I remember when you went on "Viva La Bam" back in 2005 and decided to give Bam Margera’s Lamborghini a new sunroof by taking a power saw to it. Did he own that car? Was that a rental?

I think it was his car.

Did he get over it later on?

He loved it. [Laughs] He’s got a wacky sense of humor. He’s fantastic, actually. I’m really sorry to see what he's been going through just lately. He's going through a lot, and I wish him the best. He's a fantastic person, and it's a shame that he's struggling so much with his addictions. I know what it's like. It's not easy.

Musically, what is the synergy like with you guys during the past 10 years, doing Kings and Queens of the Underground and this new stuff? What is your working relationship like now in this more sober, older, mature version of you two as opposed to what it was like back in the '80s?

In lots of ways it’s not so different because we always wrote the songs together, we always talked about what we're going to do together. It was just that we were getting high at the same time.We're just not getting [that way now] but we're doing all the same things.

We're still talking about things, still [planning] things:What are we going to do next? How are we going to find new people to work with? We want to find new producers. Let's be a little bit more timely about putting stuff out.That part of our relationship is the same, you know what I mean? That never got affected. We just happened to be overloading in the '80s.

The relationship’s… matured and it's carrying on being fruitful, and I think that's pretty amazing. Really, most people don't get to this place. Usually, they hate each other by now. [Laughs] We also give each other space. We're not stopping each other doing things outside of what we’re working on together. All of that enables us to carry on working together. I love and admire him. I respect him. He's been fantastic. I mean, just standing there on stage with him is always a treat. And he’s got an immensely great sense of humor. I think that's another reason why we can hang together after all this time because we've got the sense of humor to enable us to go forward.

There's a lot of fan reaction videos online, and I noticed a lot of younger women like "Rebel Yell" because, unlike a lot of other '80s alpha male rock tunes, you're talking about satisfying your lover.

It was about my girlfriend at the time, Perri Lister. It was about how great I thought she was, how much I was in love with her, and how great women are, how powerful they are.

It was a bit of a feminist anthem in a weird way. It was all about how relationships can free you and add a lot to your life. It was a cry of love, nothing to do with the Civil War or anything like that. Perri was a big part of my life, a big part of being Billy Idol. I wanted to write about it. I'm glad that's the effect.

Is there something you hope people get out of the songs you've been doing over the last 10 years? Do you find yourself putting out a message that keeps repeating?

Well, I suppose, if anything, is that you can come to terms with your life, you can keep a hold of it. You can work your dreams into reality in a way and, look, a million years later, still be enjoying it.

The only reason I'm singing about getting out of the cage is because I kicked out of the cage years ago. I joined Generation X when I said to my parents, "I'm leaving university, and I'm joining a punk rock group." And they didn't even know what a punk rock group was. Years ago, I’d write things for myself that put me on this path, so that maybe in 2022 I could sing something like "Cage" and be owning this territory and really having a good time. This is the life I wanted.

The original UK punk movement challenged societal norms. Despite all the craziness going on throughout the world, it seems like a lot of modern rock bands are afraid to do what you guys were doing. Do you think we'll see a shift in that?

Yeah.  Art usually reacts to things, so I would think eventually there will be a massive reaction to the pop music that’s taken over — the middle of the road music, and then this kind of right wing politics. There will be a massive reaction if there's not already one. I don’t know where it will come from exactly. You never know who's gonna do [it].

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