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Ken Caillat

Ken Caillat

Photo: The Recording Academy

Interview
Fleetwood Mac 'Rumours' producer tells all fleetwood-mac-rumours-producer-making-iconic-album

Fleetwood Mac 'Rumours' producer on making an iconic album

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In an exclusive interview, GRAMMY-winning producer/engineer discusses Making Rumours, his new book detailing the making of Fleetwood Mac's iconic album
Tim McPhate
GRAMMYs
May 15, 2017 - 2:36 am

While there is an exclusive club of artists who can boast about having a GRAMMY-winning album, only a handful, such as Fleetwood Mac, can claim their album became an actual phenomenon. And only a select few, including GRAMMY-winning producer Ken Caillat, can say they had a front-row seat for the birth of said phenomenon.

The soap opera accompanying the making of Fleetwood Mac's 1977 album, Rumours, is a music story for the ages. In the midst of recording, married band members John and Christine McVie broke up, as did Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. Founder Mick Fleetwood was also going through the dissolution of his own marriage. Amid the chaos, the quintet channeled their raw emotion and musical energy to form 11 spectacular songs on Rumours.

Released in April, Making Rumours is Caillat's personal account of the making of the album. Given Caillat's work as the album's co-producer and co-engineer, readers not only get the ultimate behind-the-glass perspective but also an intimate glimpse of the creative process and the triumphs and challenges that ultimately defined Rumours.

"Reliving [Rumours] and writing about it and trying to describe it … was very invigorating," says Caillat, who is also the father of GRAMMY-winning artist Colbie Caillat.  "I decided I really love writing. There's something to be said for taking what's in your head and putting it [into] words."

Ken Caillat on producing his daughter, Colbie Caillat

Though the book details events from more than 35 years ago, Caillat's book is marked by a crystal-clear attention to detail, ripe with delectable tales on how the songs on Rumours took shape, recording nuances and memorable anecdotes.

"The book took about four months of research and I believe it took me three months to write it," says Caillat. "From 7 [in the morning] to 6 at night, I was 29 years old again."

Though Rumours is ripe with splendid individual band member performances throughout, Fleetwood Mac's sterling effort was truly the sum of amazing parts. "Together they worked as this great team and they almost thought as one. … And I got to see it all," says Caillat.

Caillat describes Nicks, in particular, as being able to summon almost supernatural powers for her songs.

"The definitive magical Stevie Nicks vocal would have to be 'Gold Dust Woman,'" says Caillat, referring to the album's final track. "She was possibly possessed at the end of that song."

On the strength of songs such as "Dreams," "Go Your Own Your Way," "Don't Stop," and "You Make Loving Fun" all cracking the Top 10, Rumours would inhabit the No. 1 spot on the Billboard 200 for a staggering 31 weeks. On Feb. 23, 1978, the album's legacy was further cemented at the 20th Annual GRAMMY Awards when it was awarded the coveted Album Of The Year honor. It was also inducted into the GRAMMY Hall Of Fame in 2003.

"We had no idea what we had. We were so tired," says Caillat. "Most weeks, we worked seven days a week. … You never know when you're going to do something great."

Following Rumours, Caillat ultimately emerged as an integral part of the Fleetwood Mac inner circle. As the co-producer and co-engineer of albums such as 1979's Tusk, 1980's Fleetwood Mac Live and 1982's Mirage, he has hinted at the possibility of reprising his role as an author.

"I'd love to do another book," says Caillat. "What I liked about Rumours is that [it was] a really sweet journey with a bunch of naive people just trying to hold it together. It's really the great American story."

(Come back to GRAMMY.com later this month for another installment of video interviews with Ken Caillat in which he details specific songs and individual performances on Rumours.)

GRAMMYs

Fleetwood Mac's Rumours

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ken-caillat-revisits-rumours

Ken Caillat Revisits Rumours

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GRAMMY-winning producer/engineer recalls the standout songs and individual performances on Fleetwood Mac's Rumours
Tim McPhate
GRAMMYs
Dec 2, 2014 - 4:06 pm

Ken Caillat: Most Creative Member Of Fleetwood Mac

Ken Caillat: Christine McVie's "Songbird" Arrangement

Ken Caillat: Leaving "Silver Springs" Off Rumours

Ken Caillat: "Gold Dust Woman" Evolution

Ken Caillat - Elements of "John McVie-Mick Fleetwood" Combination

Ken Caillat: Favorite Song On Rumours

Ken Caillat: What If Rumours Was Recorded With Updated Technology?

Ken Caillat: Listening To Rumours

(The GRAMMY Museum will host Making Rumours: The Inside Story Of The Classic Fleetwood Mac Album — A Conversation With Ken Caillat on June 12. Caillat will discuss the making of the album and his new book. For ticket information, click here.)

Originally released in 1977, Fleetwood Mac's GRAMMY-winning album Rumours is celebrating its 35th anniversary in 2012. GRAMMY-winning producer/engineer Ken Caillat has marked the anniversary with the release of his new book, Making Rumours, a riveting tale that details the making of the album. Caillat recently visited The Recording Academy's headquarters in Santa Monica, Calif., to share his recollections about some of the album's standout songs and individual performances.

By the recording of Rumours, keyboardist/vocalist Christine McVie was a veteran of Fleetwood Mac, having joined in 1970. An integral part of the band's songwriting team, she penned Rumours hits such as "Don't Stop" and "You Make Loving Fun." However, according to Caillat, the melancholy piano ballad "Songbird" arguably ranks as McVie's finest moment on the album.

"'Songbird' was amazing," says Caillat. "We were finishing up one of the crazy sessions [at] Sausalito Record Plant and I was wrapping up some [studio] cables. Christine sat down at the piano and started playing this beautiful song. I stopped what I was doing and I turned around and watched her. I was just amazed at how beautiful this song was."

While 11 songs ultimately made the album, Rumours is also known for a song that did not make the cut. Due to the limitations of vinyl's running time, the Stevie Nicks composition "Silver Springs" was left off Rumours. The shimmery ballad received vindication of sorts when it was included on Fleetwood Mac's live reunion album, 1997's The Dance, and received a subsequent GRAMMY nomination for Best Pop Performance By A Duo Or Group With Vocal.

"To me it was one of the best recordings I've ever done. It's just really brilliantly beautiful," says Caillat of the original recording of "Silver Springs." "[But] it was another slow song, another rock ballad with a big ending, and we already had those."

In contrast to "Silver Springs," "Gold Dust Woman" revealed a darker side to Nicks' songwriting. While originally dressed with a folk arrangement, the song ultimately evolved to a hypnotic, lavishly produced album closer, complete with a harpsichord, dobro and disturbing noises such as screams and breaking glass.

"It evolved slowly. The basic track was very simple, kind of like a folk song," says Caillat. "Stevie wanted it to grow. It just kind of snuck up on you. The next thing I knew it was getting kind of creepy."

Not to be lost within Rumours are the performances of drummer Mick Fleetwood and bassist John McVie. Caillat is quick to praise the top-shelf abilities of the band's rhythm section while noting their uncanny fraternal sense.

"I think they're both psychic," says Caillat. "Mick has a flamboyant style of playing drums. Every song [John] played bass on is just amazing. … He is just a poet. They had the unique ability to play and read each other's minds and they were like two brothers. Two Siamese twins."

Turning to Lindsey Buckingham, Caillat cites "many brilliant moments" throughout the album. A talented songwriter and guitarist, Buckingham's idiosyncratic rhythmic sensibilities are evidenced throughout songs such as "You Make Loving Fun, "Go Your Own Way" and "Second Hand News," the latter in which he used a Naugahyde chair for percussion.

"There's some tom fills on 'You Make Loving Fun' in the choruses that Lindsey wanted to have kind of a spastic, accentuated beat," says Caillat. "Mick felt that he didn't really want to try it so Lindsey played the toms. Lindsey was the accent king. He could accent with guitars, he could accent with toms [and] he could accent with Naugahyde chairs."

On the strength of songs such as "Dreams," "Go Your Own Your Way," "Don't Stop," and "You Make Loving Fun" all reaching the Top 10, Rumours inhabited the No. 1 spot on the Billboard 200 for a staggering 31 weeks. On Feb. 23, 1978, the album's legacy was further cemented at the 20th Annual GRAMMY Awards when it was awarded the coveted Album Of The Year honor.

The album has continued to resonate with fans worldwide, selling more than 19 million copies in the United States alone, according to the RIAA. But given his intimate role in the album's creative process and his front-row seat for the triumphs and challenges that went into making Rumours, Caillat finds it difficult to listen to the iconic album.

"I spent at least 3,000 hours on it. I wish I could enjoy it like everybody else," says Caillat. "But every time I listen to it I can remember every part, every issue, every fight, everything. So it's not as much fun for me."

Dave Mason

Dave Mason

Photo: Chris Jensen

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Why Dave Mason Remade 'Alone Together' In 2020 dave-mason-interview-alone-together-again

Dave Mason On Recording With Rock Royalty & Why He Reimagined His Debut Solo Album, 'Alone Together'

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The ex-Traffic guitarist has played with everyone from Jimi Hendrix to George Harrison to Fleetwood Mac—now, he's taken another stab at his classic 1970 debut solo album
Morgan Enos
GRAMMYs
Jan 4, 2021 - 3:33 pm

Dave Mason is charmingly blasé when looking back at his life and career, which any guitarist would rightfully give their fretting hand to have. "I did 'All Along The Watchtower' with Hendrix," he flatly tells GRAMMY.com, as if announcing that he checked the mail today. "George [Harrison] played me Sgt. Pepper's at his house before it came out," he adds with a level of awe applicable to an evening at the neighbors' for casserole. 

Last year, Mason re-recorded his 1970 debut solo album, Alone Together, which most artists would consider a career-capping milestone. When describing the project's origins, he remains nonchalant: "It was for my own amusement, to be honest with you." 

Fifteen years ago, when the Rock And Roll Hall Of Famer started to kick around the album's songs once again in the studio, he didn't think it was for public consumption—until his wife and colleagues encouraged him to reverse that stance. On his latest release, Mason gives longtime listeners and new fans an updated take on the timeless Alone Together, this time featuring his modern-day road dogs, a fresh coat of production paint and a winking addendum in the title: Again.

Alone Together…Again, which was released last November physically via Barham Productions and digitally via Shelter Records, does what In The Blue Light (2018) and Tea For The Tillerman² (2020) did for Paul Simon and Yusuf / Cat Stevens, respectively. It allows Mason, a prestige artist, to take another stab at songs from his young manhood. Now, songs like "Only You Know And I Know," "Shouldn't Have Took More Than You Gave" and "Just A Song," which demonstrated Mason's ahead-of-the-curve writing ability so early in his career, get rawer, edgier redos here.

Mason cofounded Traffic in 1967 and appeared on the Birmingham rock band's first two albums, Mr. Fantasy (1967) and Traffic (1968). The latter featured one of Mason's signature songs: "Feelin' Alright?" which Joe Cocker, Three Dog Night and The Jackson 5 recorded. After weaving in and out of Traffic's ranks multiple times, Mason took the tunes he planned for their next album and tracked them with a murderers' row of studio greats in 1970. (That year, Traffic released John Barleycorn Must Die, sans Mason, which is widely regarded as their progressive folk masterpiece.)

Over the ensuing half-century, Mason has toured steadily while accruing an impressive body of work as a solo artist; Alone Together...Again is a welcomed reminder of where it all began. 

GRAMMY.com caught up with Dave Mason to talk about his departure from Traffic, his memories of the original Alone Together and why the new 2020 takes are, in his words, "so much better."

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Where do you feel Alone Together stands in your body of work? Is it your favorite album you've made?

No, I wouldn't say it's the favorite, but it's sort of spread out. When people ask me, "Well, what's your favorite music? What are you listening to?" I'm like, "I don't know. Which genre do you want me to talk about?" I can't pick it out and say it's my all-time favorite. There are other things I like just as much.

I mean from your solo canon, specifically.

Well, even from a solo thing, 26 Letters, 12 Notes, which I put out [in 2008], went right under the radar, because trying to put new stuff out these days is … an exercise in futility. And that was a great album! Really good. [Alone Together] definitely had great songs on it, and it still holds up, redone. So, from that point of view, it's great. It's probably one of my faves, yes.

When you made the original album, you had just left Traffic, correct?

Pretty much after the second album [1968's Traffic], I moved over here in 1969, to the U.S., for a couple of reasons. Traffic was not a viable option for me anymore, from the other three's point of view. So I decided to come to the place where everything originated from, which is America. Bluegrass, which had its roots in Europe and everything else, is uniquely American music. So that, and probably the 98-cents-to-the-dollar taxes, too. But I mostly came here for musical reasons.

Which divergent creative directions did you and the other Traffic guys wish to go in?

Had that not have happened, all those songs on Alone Together would have been on the next Traffic album.

Read: WATCH: Dave Mason & The Quarantines Uplift With New Video Version Of "Feelin' Alright"

You had quite an ensemble for the original Alone Together: pianist Leon Russell, vocalist Rita Coolidge, bassist Chris Etheridge and others. Were there specific creative reasons for involving these musicians? Or was it more in the spirit of getting some friends together?

I knew Rita and a few other people from early on, being in Delaney & Bonnie. All those people kind of knew each other. Leon Russell was new. I think Rita was going out with Leon at the time. A lot of them were gathered together by Tommy LiPuma, who coproduced Alone Together with me. Otherwise, I was just new here. I didn't know who was who.
Many of those guys were the top session guys in town: [drummers] Jim Keltner, Jim Gordon and [keyboardist] Larry Knechtel, for instance. Leon, I had him play on a couple of songs because I'd met him, I knew him, and I wanted his piano style to be on a couple of things. He put the piano on after the tracks were cut.

Let's flash-forward to Alone Together… Again. Tell me about the musicians you wrangled for this one.

Well, that's my band, the road band that I tour with. [Drummer] Alvino Bennett, [guitarist and background vocalist] Johnne Sambataro—Johnne's been with me for nearly 40 years, on and off—and [keyboardist and bassist] Tony Patler. 

Other than the slight differences in arrangements, there's more energy in the tracks. Other than the vocals, they were pretty much all cut live in the studio. The solos were cut live, because that's my live road band. "Only You Know And I Know," "Look At You Look At Me," "Shouldn't Have Took More Than You Gave," all those songs have been in my set for 50 years, on and off, so they knew them.

If I never had that session band on the original album and could have taken them on the road for a month, then that original album would have had a little more of an edge to it, probably. This new incarnation of it has more of that live feel. Those boys knew the songs. They didn't really have to think about them, but just get in there and play.

Aside from that, there are slightly different arrangements. "World In Changes" is a major departure, "Sad And Deep As You" was basically a live track cut on XM Radio probably 12, 14 years ago and "Can't Stop Worrying, Can't Stop Loving" is a little bit more fleshed out, which I like. The other songs pretty much stick to the originals. 

"Just A Song," I think, has a little more zip to it. It's got the addition of John McFee from The Doobie Brothers, who put that banjo on it, which is cool. Then there's Gretchen Rhodes, who does a lot of the girl background vocals on these tracks.

What compelled you to change up the rhythm of "World In Changes"?

I just wanted to see what would happen, taking one of my songs and adapting it to something else. I have a version of it cut the way it was originally done, and it was a question of whether I stick to that and put that on the album or do something exciting and totally different. To me, it came out so cool. The sentiment is timeless, and I wanted something on there that was new—an older song, done in a new way.

It seems like you still feel poignancy and urgency in these songs. Besides the fact that the album's 50th anniversary just passed, why did you return to the well of Alone Together?

Well, I started playing around with doing this 15 years ago. Mostly, it was for my own amusement, to be honest with you. But then, as it started to come together, and it was approaching 50 years since the [release of the] original, my wife and some people around me were like, "You should put this out." That's how it all led up to this.

Any other lyrical or musical changes that the average listener may not notice?

As to whether this ever reaches the ears of some new people, it would be nice. It seems unless you have some Twitter trick or social media thing happen, trying to get people aware [is difficult]. In other words, if a younger audience could hear this, I'm pretty sure they would like it. You'll probably have some people out there—the purists—but otherwise, I don't know. 

"Sad And Deep As You" is so much better than the original version, frankly. To me, it holds up. I think my vocals are better, which is one of the big reasons why I decided to redo it in the first place.

When you said "purists," there was an edge in your voice.

[Long chuckle.] Everybody's got their tastes and opinions, and that's the way that is. Same reason they booed Bob Dylan when he had The Band behind him. Some people are that way.

Even if people aren't familiar with the original album, I'd think your backstory would resonate with them. Your role in George Harrison's All Things Must Pass comes to mind.

Yeah, I played on a bunch of things. With All Things Must Pass, I pretty much just played acoustic guitar stuff in there with a group of people … George gave me my first sitar and played me Sgt. Pepper's at his house before it came out. I did "All Along The Watchtower" with Hendrix.

A lot of it's available on my website. There's a lot of cool stuff on there. On my YouTube channel, there's a great live version of "Watchtower" from the Journey and Doobie Brothers tour we did four years ago. But we'd be here for another half hour or more if we went over everybody I appeared with and everything I've been on.

Read: It's Not Always Going To Be This Grey: George Harrison's 'All Things Must Pass' At 50

Regarding Hendrix, that's an experience that not many other people can say they've had.

Very few. Very few. There are a lot of great guitar players out there, but there are no more Jimi Hendrixes.

You also played with Fleetwood Mac in the '90s, yeah?

I was with Fleetwood Mac from '94 to '96. We did an album called Time, which sort of went under the radar somehow. It didn't get promoted.

Why was that?

I don't know. It's not a bad album, but Warner Bros. was trying to force the issue of getting Stevie Nicks and whatshisname back in there.

Lindsey Buckingham?

Yeah, Lindsey. Christine McVie was on the album, but she didn't go on the road with us. It was kind of weird. The only original members were Mick [Fleetwood] and John [McVie]. It was a little bit like a Fleetwood Mac cover band, but it was cool. It was fun to do for a couple of years, but then they got back together again. C'est la vie. There you go.

Anything else you want to express about reimagining Alone Together 50 years down the road?

I don't think it's just the fact that it's my stuff because there are certain songs I've done that I would not address again. But the thing about those songs is that they all have very timeless themes. "World In Changes," I mean, that could have been written a month ago. To redo them doesn't seem that out of place to me.

Director John McDermott Talks New Jimi Hendrix Documentary, 'Music, Money, Madness … Jimi Hendrix in Maui'

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Steely Dan at The Village in 1973

Steely Dan at The Village in 1973

Photo: Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images

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History Of: The Village Studios history-visit-iconic-recording-studio-village-los-angeles-hidden-gem

History Of: Visit Iconic Recording Studio The Village, A Los Angeles Hidden Gem

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Watch the latest episode of GRAMMY.com's History Of video series above to learn more about the inconspicuous West Los Angeles gem, located just down the street from the Recording Academy headquarters
Ana Monroy Yglesias
GRAMMYs
Nov 10, 2020 - 5:03 pm

There's something special about stepping into a space where albums you love were made. When you walk into historic Lost Angeles recording studio The Village and admire the countless gold and platinum records lining the walls, it's impossible not to feel inspired as you imagine the massive talent and creativity that the cozy building has held since 1968. If you listen closely enough, you can almost hear Stevie Nicks' angelic voice floating from Studio D or Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg bringing G-funk to life in Studio A.

History Of The Village Studios

History Of: The World-Famous Troubadour In West Hollywood

Watch the latest episode of GRAMMY.com's History Of video series above to learn more about the inconspicuous West Los Angeles gem, located just down the street from the Recording Academy headquarters. 

Hosting iconic artists throughout the decades, The Village is the birthplace of great albums like Fleetwood Mac's Tusk (1979), Janet Jackson's Damita Jo (2004), Dr. Dre's The Chronic and Lady Gaga's GRAMMY-winning A Star Is Born Soundtrack (2018) and Whitney Houston's GRAMMY-winning The Bodyguard Original Soundtrack (1992), to name a few.

Poll: From "Dreams" To "The Chain," Which Fleetwood Mac Song Is Your Favorite?

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Fleetwood Mac in 1975

Fleetwood Mac in 1975

Photo: Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images

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Which Fleetwood Mac Song Is Your Favorite? poll-dreams-chain-which-fleetwood-mac-song-your-favorite

Poll: From "Dreams" To "The Chain," Which Fleetwood Mac Song Is Your Favorite?

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"Dreams" experienced a charming viral moment on TikTok after a man posted a video skateboarding to the classic track, and now it's back on the charts, 43 years later
Ana Monroy Yglesias
GRAMMYs
Oct 15, 2020 - 5:00 pm

In honor of Fleetwood Mac's ethereal '70s rock classic "Dreams," which recently returned to the Billboard Hot 100 thanks to a viral TikTok skateboard video from Nathan Apodaca, we want to know which of the legendary group's songs is your favorite!

Beyond their ubiquitous 1977 No. 1 hit "Dreams," there are so many other gems from the iconic GRAMMY-winning album Rumours, as well as across their entire catalog. There's the oft-covered sentimental ballad "Landslide" from their 1975 self-titled album, the jubilant, sparkling Tango in the Night cut "Everywhere" and Stevie Nicks' triumphant anthem for the people "Gypsy," from 1982's Mirage, among many others.

Vote below in our latest GRAMMY.com poll to let us know which you love most.

Polls

Which Fleetwood Mac Song Is Your Favorite?

Related: Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" Back On Charts Thanks To Viral Skateboard Video On TikTok

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Poll: What's Your Favorite Van Halen Song?

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Some of the content on this site expresses viewpoints and opinions that are not those of the Recording Academy. Responsibility for the accuracy of information provided in stories not written by or specifically prepared for the Academy lies with the story's original source or writer. Content on this site does not reflect an endorsement or recommendation of any artist or music by the Recording Academy.