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Glen Ballard On How His Netflix Show "The Eddy" Puts Music, Jazz And Performance First

Production still from Netflix's "The Eddy"

Photo: Lou Faulon

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Glen Ballard On How His Netflix Show "The Eddy" Puts Music, Jazz And Performance First

The six-time GRAMMY-winning songwriter and producer discusses the show's music-first approach and his mission to take jazz into the mainstream

GRAMMYs/May 16, 2020 - 02:21 am

There's a pivotal scene in the second episode of "The Eddy," the new music-centric Netflix show about a once-celebrated jazz pianist named Elliot Udo (André Holland) and his struggling Parisian jazz club, the titular The Eddy. In the sequence, Elliot's 16-year-old daughter Julie (Amandla Stenberg) steals a vodka bottle from the club and attempts to seduce one of the venue's bartenders inside her dad's office. 

As the scene turns solemn, the music shifts into a somber tone. The house band plays a series of dissonant notes—the piano burrows in the lower register, the trumpet blares muffled noise and the sax squeals nightmarish sounds—before launching into a dizzying jazz number. As the song spirals downward, so, too, does Julie, who soon gets mixed up with a bad crowd in the outskirts of Paris. It's a masterful pairing of music and image that largely defines the stylistically cool show. 

For Glen Ballard, the six-time GRAMMY-winning songwriter/producer and executive producer of "The Eddy," both the drama of the music and the show itself are inherently interlaced. So much so, the show's writer, the BAFTA Award winner ​Jack Thorne, wrote the performance scenes and music sections as integral elements of "The Eddy."

"Jack was so clear about how he wanted the music and passion that [the band] had for that actual music to be expressed, because he felt like if you didn't get that, you would be missing an essential link with these characters," Ballard tells the Recording Academy. "Jack called out every song, where he wanted it and what song they would be playing, so it's an intimate part of his writing process—there's no question."

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Set in the multicultural neighborhoods of modern-day Paris, "The Eddy" follows the life and drama of Elliot Udo as he juggles the everyday tribulations of his failing jazz club and struggling band, his broken relationship with his daughter and his battles with a group of thugs threatening his loved ones and his business.

The eight-episode limited series features two chapters directed by Academy Award winner Damien Chazelle, the former jazz-drummer-turned-director behind the jazz-centric films Whiplash (2014) and La La Land (2016). (The series is a collaboration between Alan Poul, who executive-produced the show and directed its final two episodes, Chazelle, Thorne and Ballard.)

"The Eddy" is just one of the latest music-driven projects for Ballard, who wrote and composed original songs and music for the series. (The show's official soundtrack features all original contemporary jazz songs written by Ballard and Randy Kerber, as well as covers by St. Vincent and Jorja Smith.) For his part, Ballard dug deep into his résumé, which includes songwriting, production and performance credits with Barbra Streisand, Katy Perry, Shakira, Chaka Khan and many others. Beyond music, he's also worked across stage ("GHOST the Musical," "Jagged Little Pill") and film (The Polar Express, A Christmas Carol, The Mummy Returns). 

"I think I spent the first 25 years of my career working with singer-songwriters, helping them tell their story. I loved it; it was fun and exhilarating. But I think now I can use songwriting to tell other stories," Ballard says of his jump to the screen and stage. "As a songwriter, I just felt a little limited, especially with just writing a three-minute pop song. As difficult as that is, I'm looking for the next level of storytelling and songwriting, so obviously musical theater is one place you can do that."

The Recording Academy chatted with Glen Ballard to discuss the music-first approach of "The Eddy" and his mission to take jazz into the mainstream.

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How did you first get involved with the show?

It's been this long-time dream of mine to have a jazz band in Paris and to write songs for it. Ever since I lived here in the '90s, it was obvious to me that Paris still hadn't given up on jazz. There were about 14 or 15 jazz clubs scattered out all around the city, and you could go in there any night and just hear people playing jazz. There's something about the intimacy of that. As we moved into the digital era, there was less intimacy in the presentation of music and certainly in the playing of music.

I've been quietly planning this for about 50 years. Growing up where I did, in Mississippi, near New Orleans, I was around a lot of jazz. But for me, it was always about looking forward and not looking back. I started writing songs for a project called "The Eddy" in 2008. I wrote the first iteration of the song "The Eddy." It was this sort of mythical club where a great band, great singer and an intimate audience find each other, and it becomes a kind of transcendent moment. I just feel like that's been missing a lot in music presentation, and it was just the desire to want to do that for real. That was the dream.

In 2013, I met with Alan Poul and I, at that point, had about 50 songs that we had done a demo [for]. He's a great TV producer [and] director, and he was [making] this whole thing happen because he loved the concept, loved the music, loved the idea of Paris [being] multicultural, but he didn't quite know who would be the person to execute that.

Then he called me a few months later and said, "I just met a young filmmaker named Damien Chazelle. I just saw a very short film called Whiplash; it's not even the complete film." But he said, "This guy gets jazz, he knows how to use the camera, he's a great director." Damien came down and listened to the music, he listened to the band that we had put together and he was in. That was almost six years ago. We planned on making the show in Paris … and that's how it got started … with me writing a bunch of songs.

So the first flickers of "The Eddy" started back in the late 2000s.

In 2008, I wrote the lyrics to it and I had some of the music. It was the concept of this place where you can be yourself, express yourself as a musician, find yourself as somewhat sitting in the audience and [listening] to a great singer. There's just something magical about that, something that I've always felt, even from when I was a child going into jazz clubs in New Orleans and hearing people that could really play. When the magic gets hit, it's a transcendent thing. 

I think too much of that has been missing, and the idea of getting close to that really appealed to me. Once we got Damien Chazelle involved and we were lucky enough to get Jack Thorne, who's a wonderful British writer—I think we gave him 39 original "Eddy" songs and he wrote eight episodes and used those songs throughout each episode as subtext, as counterpoint, but as part of the whole story. For me as a songwriter, to have Jack Thorne do that is one of the great gifts I've ever been given—believe me.

Your songwriting, production and performance credits in music are all over the place. You've worked with everyone from Alanis Morissette to Miley Cyrus. But are you a jazz guy at heart?

The first major song I had recorded in 1980 was from a jazz artist named George Benson and the producer was Quincy Jones. I kind of got started in that world, even though it was kind of a pop-jazz thing ... But then we got sidetracked. I worked with Quincy, did a bunch of the Michael Jackson records with him, I produced for him. Then I went off on my own. I've had an exceedingly diverse career, there can be no doubt. At whatever point people think they know what I do, I do something else ... I wanted to be like a Billy Strayhorn who could write great lyrics, great music and have a great band to express it.

I finally got that with "The Eddy." It just took me a while to get there. But I do have a great band. We do have this club in Paris, which is closed at the moment, but we hope to reopen it. Every bit of the music in the show, these musicians are playing live, and that never happens on episodic TV. For that fact alone, I feel like we're giving the audience a slice of real music performed by real musicians, and musicians who can really play and who are doing it not to be famous—they're doing it because they have to do it. If you want to call it a romantic portrait of the artist, yeah, probably it is. But the other side of that romance is how much it costs to get there and to stay there. To run a jazz club in Paris, you don't do that for money—you do it for love.

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The show dedicates a large amount of screen time just to the musicians and the performances. There are several extensive scenes showing only the musicians performing on their instruments—no dialogue, no drama, no anything in the background. Was that important to reflect in the show?

Personally, I'm deeply grateful for that, because so many times the music is treated in a perfunctory manner. But the way Jack wrote it, he wrote it in a jazz style. Like he said, "When the band's playing, I want to hear it. I want to take that journey with them." He felt like that was part of the narrative: how they interacted with each other and how they find and lose themselves when they're playing. I loved that we get to hear complete takes and they're playing a lot. But when they stop playing, there's not a lot of music. It's this great dichotomy between these long sequences of music, and then when they stop playing, there's no music.

In a lot of music-driven films or TV, the music itself is either secondary or the main focus. With "The Eddy," the music feels very much more in-synch with the story. It doesn't dominate the conversation, nor is it background fodder either. In your eyes and ears, what role did you see the music itself playing in "The Eddy"?

I just think, on every level, it is the juice that fuels [all these musicians]. I felt like the music and their passion for music and for playing it and for playing new songs together—that's their mission in life because they don't do anything else … You get people like the bass player, Damian Nueva Cortes ... he brings so much to the table, so just seeing someone like that perform, I think they deserve that screen time.

Jack was so clear about how he wanted the music and passion that they had for that actual music to be expressed, because he felt like if you didn't get that, you would be missing an essential link with these characters. But it's still character-driven because they all have their own distinct personalities, but we see how intimate they are with their instrument and how it's an extension of their personality. Jack called out every song, where he wanted it and what song they would be playing, so it's an intimate part of his writing process—there's no question.

The band in the show is made up of actual musicians and performers. Was that an important choice?

It was the only choice we could make. It was either we get people who can play this and play it beautifully, or we're just going to turn it into five actors who can't play and we're going to pretend like they can, and that was never interesting to any of us. But at the same time, it was a huge act of faith on the part of our producers, our network, our directors to take five musicians who had never acted, put them in a major Netflix drama and hope that they can do it. When we cast them, the first [question] was, "Can they play?" … It had to be real musicians.

If we were going to make this whole thing float, we had to show the audience people who were sweating it out onstage, a real drummer who can really play and [that] nobody's faking it. Jazz musicians are intrinsically interesting human beings. They had gone on their own journey from an early age, and if they're in jazz right now, they're doing it out of passion, they don't get famous from it. Just being able to show people who are that dedicated to something, and specifically this music, and that the music is good and they really can play it, that was an essential element. I'm just thrilled that we had the right team who always wanted it to be real. They didn't want anybody to be phoning it in. It was a challenge to all of us, but I'm really, really proud of the musicians because they all made their acting debuts, and I think they all held up beautifully.

Read: 'Bitches Brew' At 50: Why Miles Davis' Masterpiece Remains Impactful

How has the jazz community, whether the artists themselves or the fans and listeners, reacted to the show?

So far, it's been very, very positive … I expect the jazz community will like it, but it was intended to be new. As much as anything, I'm looking for a younger audience rather than an older audience. I think the older audience would appreciate this anyway because of the musicianship and the skill of writing, I think, is pretty obviously at a high level.

I'm just hoping that, as much as anything, we get a new audience, and I do believe that the traditional jazz audience will appreciate totally what we've done. It would thrill me to no end to get 20-year-olds involved through this and who are passionate about it and who actually want to go out and see some music, see real musicians play like "The Eddy." 

That's what this is about for me. It's about reminding people of that intimate experience with a great jazz ensemble and a great singer. There's nothing like it: to be in a room with somebody great like that, to be that close to it—it's just a beautiful thing. It's a celebration of that, and hopefully it's an invitation, especially [for] younger people, to go out to hear some jazz. Certainly when The Eddy comes, come listen to them.

Left to right: Jowee Omicil, Ludovic Louis, Joanna Kulig, Glen Ballard, Randy Kerber, Lada Obradovic, Damian Nueva Cortes, associate producer and music supervisor Angela Vicari | Photo: Lou Faulon

It's a tough time to be a jazz artist right now, isn't it?

It's a tough time to be a performing artist of any kind, but especially jazz. Jazz fell into this category of, like, it's always looking back, it's black-and-white photographs from the '50s, Miles Davis in Paris. That's all music that I love; it's in my DNA.

But this is not about that; it can't be. This can't be a quiz about what you know about jazz. It should just be about, "Do you like the show? Do you feel the music?" And maybe you'll go get it and understand a little bit better that these are very talented people who kind of live in the shadow now of music. There's not one song on the radio where people are playing music together—not one. If you look at the top 100 songs, they're all driven by a computer, most of the vocals are auto-tuned.

I'm not putting it down, but I'm just saying that it's a different thing. It's different from having five people onstage who can shred, who can play anything backwards, and having a singer that can kill it and having chromatic music and lyrics that really go to the next level. I just believe that the quality of what we're doing is what we're selling. There's not a machine up there driving it: It's the real drummer and she can change the beat at the drop of a hat. It's just a different deal. It's about people making music.

Do you see shows like "The Eddy" or movies like Whiplash and La La Land as an invitation into the jazz community for your everyday person?

I'm trying to take it out of the very narrow confines of the jazz community and make it more mainstream. For me as a songwriter, I think that all these songs, I think every one of them has a hook, they're somewhat memorable and yet they're very densely musical. I think what's been missing from jazz is memorability. It's not about somebody taking a 15-minute solo; it's about having a melody that you can remember, and then maybe the solo is the variation of that melody. For me, it went back to the fundamentals of songwriting and using a jazz vocabulary, lyrically and musically, but still delivering songs that touch people.

For me, songwriting is the key to it all, and so I'm actually trying to expand the audience and not just knock on the door of the jazz audience because I expect that they will like it. They're a very tiny group. I love and respect them all, I'm part of that group. But I want a younger, broader audience. I think the show will help, if nothing else. It's probably the best way for people to feel it is to actually get to know these people, these characters ... The feedback I've been getting is people really loved the music, so, so far so good.

Read: Inside The 'Moulin Rouge' Broadway Cast Recording, With Baz Luhrmann, Matt Stine & More

Your professional background is very heavy on music-driven projects across film, television and theater. How and why did you start crossing over into those art forms?

I think I spent the first 25 years of my career working with singer-songwriters, helping them tell their story. I loved it; it was fun and exhilarating. But I think now I can use songwriting to tell other stories. As a songwriter, I just felt a little limited, especially with just writing a three-minute pop song. As difficult as that is, I'm looking for the next level of storytelling and songwriting, so obviously musical theater is one place you can do that.

I'm just a storyteller and I've been using my company, [Augury], to develop music-driven projects. This is the best way for me to do it now. It's been really exciting. We're a tiny company, but we have a lot of big projects going, so I'm really, really proud of it.

When you're creating these music-driven projects for TV, film and theater, how do you go about choosing those ideas? What are some of the elements that need to exist or need to stand out in order for you to commit to them?

[For] "The Eddy," it was me wanting to have a jazz club in Paris, so that was the high concept there. In terms of "Back To The Future" [Editor's Note: His production company, Augury, is co-producing a stage adaptation of the 1985 film, Back To The Future], clearly the concept is already there, but it was trying to figure out how to take this iconic movie and put it onstage. It's a different process, but it's all part of what we do, of trying to be able to figure out how to tell the story in whatever medium it is and to use songs to do that. 

With "Jagged Little Pill," that was just another lucky thing where [film and TV writer/producer/director] Diablo Cody took the album, Jagged Little Pill, and wrote a completely new story around all of the songs. Jack Thorne did the same thing with "The Eddy." He took all these songs and created a narrative. Sometimes I have the idea of a narrative, sometimes I just have the songs, or the high concept ... Every project has its own kind of magic to it, and if it has enough music and enough storytelling, I'm usually interested.

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A Year In Alternative Jazz: 10 Albums To Understand The New GRAMMYs Category
Linda May Han Oh

Photo: Shervin Lainez

list

A Year In Alternative Jazz: 10 Albums To Understand The New GRAMMYs Category

"Alternative jazz" may not be a bandied-about term in the jazz world, but it's a helpful lens to view the "genre-blending, envelope-pushing hybrid" that defines a new category at the 2024 GRAMMYs. Here are 10 albums from 2023 that rise to this definition.

GRAMMYs/Jan 9, 2024 - 02:47 pm

What, exactly, is "alternative jazz"? After that new category was announced ahead of the 2024 GRAMMYs nominations, inquiring minds wanted to know. The "alternative" descriptor is usually tied to rock, pop or dance — not typically jazz, which gets qualifiers like "out" or "avant-garde."

However, the introduction of the Best Alternative Jazz Album category does shoehorn anything into the lexicon. Rather, it commensurately clarifies and expands the boundaries of this global artform.

According to the Recording Academy, alternative jazz "may be defined as a genre-blending, envelope-pushing hybrid that mixes jazz (improvisation, interaction, harmony, rhythm, arrangements, composition, and style) with other genres… it may also include the contemporary production techniques/instrumentation associated with other genres."

And the 2024 GRAMMY nominees for Best Alternative Jazz Album live up to this dictum: Arooj Aftab, Vijay Iyer and Shahzad Ismaily's Love in Exile; Louis Cole's Quality Over Opinion; Kurt Elling, Charlie Hunter and SuperBlue's SuperBlue: The Iridescent Spree; Cory Henry's Live at the Piano; and Meshell Ndegeocello's The Omnichord Real Book.

Sure, these were the standard bearers of alternative jazz over the past year and change — as far as Recording Academy Membership is concerned. But these are only five albums; they amount to a cross section. With that in mind, read on for 10 additional albums from 2023 that fall under the umbrella of alternative jazz.

Allison Miller - Rivers in Our Veins

The supple and innovative drummer and composer Allison Miller often works in highly cerebral, conceptual spaces. After all, her last suite, Rivers in Our Veins, involves a jazz band, three dancers and video projections.

Therein, Miller chose one of the most universal themes out there: how rivers shape our lives and communities, and how we must act as their stewards. Featuring violinist Jenny Scheinman, trumpeter Jason Palmer, clarinetist Ben Goldberg, keyboardist and accordionist Carmen Staff, and upright bassist Todd SickafooseRivers in Our Veins homes in on the James, Delaware, Potomac, Hudson, and Susquehanna.

And just as these eastern U.S. waterways serve all walks of life, Rivers in Our Veins defies category. And it also blurs two crucial aspects of Miller's life and career.

"I get to marry my environmentalism and my activism with music," she told District Fray. "And it's still growing!

M.E.B. - That You Not Dare To Forget

The Prince of Darkness may have slipped away 32 years ago, but he's felt eerily omnipresent in the evolution of this music ever since.

In M.E.B. or "Miles Electric Band," an ensemble of Davis alumni and disciples underscore his unyielding spirit with That You Not Dare to Forget. The lineup is staggering: bassists Ron Carter, Marcus Miller, and Stanley Clarke; saxophonist Donald Harrison, guitarist John Scofield, a host of others.

How does That You Not Dare To Forget satisfy the definition of alternative jazz? Because like Davis' abstracted masterpieces, like Bitches Brew, On the Corner and the like, the music is amoebic, resistant to pigeonholing.

Indeed, tunes like "Hail to the Real Chief" and "Bitches are Back" function as scratchy funk or psychedelic soul as much as they do the J-word, which Davis hated vociferously.

And above all, they're idiosyncratic to the bone — just as the big guy was, every second of his life and career.

Art Ensemble of Chicago - Sixth Decade - from Paris to Paris

The nuances and multiplicities of the Art Ensemble of Chicago cannot be summed up in a blurb: that's where books like Message to Our Folks and A Power Stronger Than Itself — about the AACM — come in.

But if you want an entryway into this bastion of creative improvisational music — that, unlike The Art Ensemble of Chicago and Associated Ensembles boxed set, isn't 18-plus hours long — Sixth Decade - from Paris to Paris will do in a pinch.

Recorded just a month before the pandemic struck, The Sixth Decade is a captivating looking-glass into this collective as it stands, with fearless co-founder Roscoe Mitchell flanked by younger leading lights, like Nicole Mitchell and Moor Mother.

Potent and urgent, engaging the heart as much as the cerebrum, this music sees the Art Ensemble still charting their course into the outer reaches. Here's to their next six decades.

Theo Croker - By The Way

By The Way may not be an album proper, but it's still an exemplar of alternative jazz.

The five-track EP finds outstanding trumpeter, vocalist, producer, and composer Croker revisiting tunes from across his discography, with UK singer/songwriter Ego Ella May weaving the proceedings with her supple, enveloping vocals.

Compositions like "Slowly" and "If I Could I Would" seem to hang just outside the reaches of jazz; it pulls on strings of neo soul and silky, progressive R&B.

Even the music video for "Slowly" is quietly innovative: in AI's breakthrough year, machine learning made beautifully, cosmically odd visuals for that percolating highlight.

Michael Blake - Dance of the Mystic Bliss

Even a cursory examination of Dance of the Mystic Bliss reveals it to be Pandora's box.

First off: revered tenor and soprano saxophonist Michael Blake's CV runs deep, from his lasting impression in New York's downtown scene to his legacy in John Lurie's Lounge Lizards.

And his new album is steeped in the long and storied history of jazz and strings, as well as Brazilian music and the sting of grief — Blake's mother's 2018 passing looms heavy in tunes like "Merle the Pearl." 

"Sure, for me, it's all about my mom, and there will be some things that were triggered. But when you're listening to it, you're going to have a completely different experience," Blake told LondonJazz in 2023.

"That's what I love about instrumental music," he continued. "That's what's so great about how jazz can transcend to this unbelievable spiritual level." Indeed, Dance of the Mystic Bliss can be communed with, with or without context, going in familiar or cold.

And that tends to be the instrumental music that truly lasts — the kind that gives you a cornucopia of references and sensations, either way.

Dinner Party - Enigmatic Society

Dinner Party's self-titled debut EP, from 2020 — and its attendant remix that year, Dinner Party: Dessert — introduced a mightily enticing supergroup to the world: Kamasi Washington, Robert Glasper, Terrace Martin, and 9th Wonder.

While the magnitude of talent there is unquestionable, the quartet were still finding their footing; when mixing potent Black American genres in a stew, sometimes the strong flavors can cancel each other out.

Enigmatic Society, their debut album, is a relaxed and concise triumph; each man has figured out how he can act as a quadrant for the whole.

And just as guests like Herbie Hancock and Snoop Dogg elevated Dinner Party: Dessert, colleagues like Phoelix and Ant Clemons ride this wave without disturbing its flow.

Wadada Leo Smith & Orange Wave Electric - Fire Illuminations

The octogenarian tumpeter, multi-instrumentalist and composer Wadada Leo Smith is a standard-bearer of the subset of jazz we call "creative music." And by the weighty, teeming sound of Fire Illuminations, it's clear he's not through surprising us.

Therein, Smith debuts his nine-piece Orange Wave Electric ensemble, which features three guitarists (Nels Cline, Brandon Ross, Lamar Smith) and two electric bassists (Bill Laswell and Melvin Gibbs).

In characteristically sagelike fashion, Smith described Fire Illuminations as "a ceremonial space where one's hearts and conscious can embrace for a brief period of unconditioned love where the artist and their music with the active observer becomes united."

And if you zoom in from that beatific view, you get a majestic slab of psychedelic hard rock — with dancing rhythms, guitar fireworks and Smith zigzagging across the canvas like Miles. 

Henry Threadgill - The Other One

Saxophonist, flutist and composer Henry Threadgill composed The Other One for the late, great Milfred Graves, the percussionist with a 360 degree vantage of the pulse of his instrument and how it related to heart, breath and hands.

If that sounds like a mouthful, this is a cerebral, sprawling and multifarious space: The Other One itself consists of one three-movement piece (titled Of Valence) and is part of a larger multimedia work.

To risk oversimplification, though, The Other One is a terrific example of where "jazz" and "classical" melt as helpful descriptors, and flow into each other like molten gold.

If you're skeptical of the limits and constraints of these hegemonic worlds, let Threadgill and his creative-music cohorts throughout history bulldoze them before your ears.

Linda May Han Oh - The Glass Hours

Jazz has an ocean of history with spoken word, but this fusion must be executed judiciously: again, these bold flavors can overwhelm each other. Except when they're in the hands of an artist as keen as Linda May Han Oh.

"I didn't want it to be an album with a lot of spoken word," the Malaysian Australian bassist and composer told LondonJazz, explaining that "Antiquity" is the only track on The Glass Hours to feature a recitation from the great vocalist Sara Serpa. "I just felt it was necessary for that particular piece, to explain a bit of the narrative more."

Elsewhere, Serpa's crystalline, wordless vocals are but one color swirling with the rest: tenor saxophonist Mark Turner, pianist Fabian Almazan, and drummer and electronicist Obed Calvaire.

Themed after "the fragility of time and life; exploring paradoxes seeded within our individual and societal values," The Glass Hours is Oh's most satisfying and well-rounded offering to date, ensconced in an iridescent atmosphere.

Charles Lloyd - Trios: Sacred Thread

You can't get too deep into jazz without bumping into the art of the trio — and the primacy of it. 

At 85, saxophonist and composer Charles Lloyd is currently smoking every younger iteration of himself on the horn; his exploratory fires are undimmed. So, for his latest project, he opted not just to just release a trio album, but a trio of trios.

Trios: Chapel features guitarist Bill Frisell and bassist Thomas Morgan; Trios: Ocean is augmented by guitarist Anthony Wilson and pianist Gerald Clayton; the final, Trios: Sacred Thread, contains guitarists Julian Lage and percussionist Zakir Hussain.

These are wildly different contexts for Lloyd, but they all meet at a meditative nexus. Drink it in as the curtains close on 2023, as you consider where all these virtuosic, forward-thinking musicians will venture to next — "alternative" or not.

Arooj Aftab, Vijay Iyer & Shahzad Ismaily On New Album 'Love In Exile,' Improvisation Versus Co-Construction And The Primacy Of The Pulse

Charles Esten On How Procrastination, Serendipity And "Nashville" Resulted In 'Love Ain't Pretty'
Charles Esten

Photo: Kirsten Balani

interview

Charles Esten On How Procrastination, Serendipity And "Nashville" Resulted In 'Love Ain't Pretty'

For the first time in his career, Charles Esten is fully focused on music. But as the actor/singer details, his debut album, 'Love Ain't Pretty' is much more than another venture — it's a lifelong goal achieved.

GRAMMYs/Jan 3, 2024 - 10:40 pm

Like many of his peers, Charles Esten has known music is his calling since he was a kid. But at 58, he's just now getting the opportunity to do what his contemporaries are long past: release a debut album.

As fans of the beloved ABC/CMT series "Nashville" or the hit Netflix drama "Outer Banks" know, Esten first established himself in the acting world. But as his "Nashville" role revealed, the actor also had some strong singing chops, too — and it wasn't a coincidence.

Due Jan. 26, Love Ain't Pretty is a testament to both Esten's patience and his passion. Combining his soulful country sound and emotive songwriting, Love Ain't Pretty poignantly captures his years of loving and learning. And with a co-writing credit on all 14 tracks, the album is the purest representation of his artistry possible.

"Being the age I am, and the difference of what this album is to what maybe my first album would've been if I was 28, is the intentionality," he tells GRAMMY.com. "I can chase what's thoroughly me, and the facets of that. And in the end, that, I think, makes better music anyway."

As the title suggests, Love Ain't Pretty mostly focuses on finding the beauty in life. Along with several odes to his wife, Patty ("One Good Move," "Candlelight"), Esten delivers tales of self-reflection ("A Little Right Now") and simply enjoying the moment ("Willing To Try"), all with a grit that's equal parts inspiring and charming.

Perhaps the most fitting sentiment on the album is "Make You Happy" — not because of its lovestruck narrative, but because it captures Esten's goal with Love Ain't Pretty and beyond: "Wanna make you happy/ Wanna make you smile."

"I know that musical superstardom is not an option," he acknowledges. "I don't even seek it. So, what do I seek instead of perfection? Connection."

Below, Esten recounts his fateful journey to Love Ain't Pretty — from his first taste of stardom to finally fulfilling his lifelong dream.

This interview has been edited for clarity.

All the way back in third grade, our elementary school had a contest to write the school song. They said, "Find a Disney song and use the melody and then put new words to it." I did it to "It's a Small World." I probably wrote little doodles on my own [before that], but that was the first one with any bit of fame. 

I went back, like 10 years later, and they were singing that. They actually made it as part of all the assemblies and everything. That feeling, to hear people singing words that you thought of, I'm sure that was the beginning of this path.

Eventually, when I went to college, I was in a band. But, even before I was in a band, my grandmother passed in my sophomore year of college. And, I didn't get back in time to see her. She had helped raise me when I was little, after my parents' divorce, so it hit me hard. I somehow was able to put what she meant to me in a song, and that made a big impact in a lot of ways. Whereas that third grade little ditty made everybody laugh and smile and everything, this made my mother and my aunts and uncles [cry] in a warm, loving way. I could see it affecting them. 

I could [also] feel it help me process what I was going through. That was another bit of an aha moment, like, "Oh wow, writing a song can do that also."

Right after that, I started a band. That experience of hearing a band bring your song alive — it was so much more full, this experience, and hearing somebody else add a thing you hadn't thought of, that was another true revelation, the power of that. So I got hooked rather quickly. 

Honestly, I probably would've stayed in that world if my band had stayed in that world. They all made the decision to graduate and go be doctors and lawyers and stuff, as the song says. When that finished up, I didn't know what I was going to do next. But, having experienced that made it clear to me that I was not cut out for a desk job — even though I had an economics degree. 

I had some friends that had gone to L.A. and started becoming actors. I thought, "Maybe I'll give that a try." But the long and the short of it is, if you had asked me, "Will you continue in music?" I'd be like, "Absolutely. I'm going to go out there and I'm going to meet another bass player and a drummer and another band will come."

It didn't happen. I went to London and played Buddy Holly for two and a half years in the musical "Buddy." When I went back to L.A. after that, then the family started to come, and so the band just never happened. But I had a piano, had guitars — I never stopped writing or playing.

At one point, I had the thought, "Well, I might have missed the boat in terms of ever getting to be a performer myself, but I can write songs." And by this point, I was really listening to a whole lot of country, '90s country, 2000s and all.

So, I decided I was going to start writing in a more formalized way, in a more intentional way, instead of just whenever a song came to me. And, as soon as I sort of said that, things started happening.

I met my friend Jane Bach, who is a great Nashville songwriter. She was going back and forth between LA and Nashville at the time. She invited me to sing at the Bluebird [Cafe in Nashville], which I knew very well, and I said yes. And twice, I had to cancel because I got other work. And at a certain point, I literally said to my wife, "When am I going to get to go to Nashville? That'll never happen."

[That] maybe was two or three years before "Nashville." And then I get this script that says, "Nashville." Next thing I know, I'm here and I'm literally doing my first scene in the Bluebird.

I understand, very cleanly, that ["Nashville"] opened all these side doors that most people don't have access to. But, I also know that there's a chance they could have all been opened and I could not have been ready. 

When it finally [happened], for a lot of people, just looking at an actor who's playing a singer/songwriter, I get the feeling that it was a pleasant surprise — I like to think that there was a little more there than they expected. It was actually more authentically who I was than the actor.

I never really quite verbalized this, but the feeling [of landing "Nashville"] was one of — it'll make me emotional — completion. I felt like the show was an answer to so many unsolved things in my life. And that's, I think, why we haven't left. And it's also why the album meant so much to me.

It meant so much to me that I didn't just get here and do an album. I got here at 46. To be that old and not really know who you are as an artist — I never had to define myself. So, I didn't chase that immediately. I just wanted to make music in Music City and make as much as I could. 

I always felt behind, because all my contemporaries that had been here, very many of them were already incredibly famous and already had done so much. But you can't [focus on] the road not taken. 

I have to admit, there's some part of me that would be like, "What if you were putting out your first album at 28?" That's nothing I sort of worry about. I know that it wouldn't have been this. I wouldn't change anything. I have this wife and this family and this career that brought me here. It feels like this was the way it was meant to happen, as strange as it all is.

I felt more prepared than people might expect. And I had something that most people didn't have, which was, Deacon walked in places before I did. Deacon sang at the Bluebird before Charles did. Deacon was at the Grand Ole Opry before I was.

That began what I would call my 10,000 hours in this town. Between the number of hours I've been able to be on stage at these incredible venues, and play music with these incredible people, and all the singles I was able to put out over the last 10 years, I now feel like that, in some ways, I have as much of a catalog as people that have been here for those 30 years. But, it's still my first album, which I've held onto for something special, and I'm so grateful for the way it turned out. I couldn't be happier.

I knew that I wasn't emptying the whole toolbox to play Deacon. But, having said that, I'm so moved by how much playing that guy influenced my music and my songwriting. A song like "A Little Right Now," it roars at the top and rages a little bit, but in general, that is a Deacon song through and through. "I'm a farmer praying for rain/ I'm a gambler that needs an ace of spades/ I'm a sailor hoping for a gust of wind/ I'm a singer looking for that song/ I'm a prisoner that ain't got long/ I'm a dreamer waiting for my ship to come in/ But lately all my roads have been running out/ There ain't no silver linings in these clouds/ Help me, Lord, and show me how to find the kind of faith that I once found/ 'Cause I could sure use a little right now." When you watch the show, you'll go, "That's the Deacon-est thing I've ever heard."

There's other songs on this album as well. "Maybe I'm Alright" — Deacon's journey was from utterly broken to "maybe I'm alright." As I look at it, he informs this album.

I'm a procrastinator. That's why I released so many singles in 2016, that world record. [Editor's note: Esten released 54 original songs once a week for 54 straight weeks, earning a Guinness World Records title in 2018 for the "Most consecutive weeks to release an original digital single by a music act."] 

That was a mind hack — a life hack — to arbitrarily create deadlines. And, my God, did that work, because I just started putting it out. [After that,] I started thinking about an album, and I even made an early attempt at it, and then COVID hit. 

They felt like songs from a thousand years ago [after the lockdown]. I pretty much scrapped it and didn't use any of them, and said, "I've just got to do this again in a different way. It's a different me. It's a different world."

My wife is not a procrastinator. And I'll show her, sometimes there's an upside of procrastinating. It's like using a crockpot when there's a microwave right there — it stews in all the ingredients. 

Deacon's a major ingredient, but if you just put that major ingredient on it and cook it real quick, it's too pronounced. Stew it in there with all the other ones until it's a new flavor, a new thing in its entirety. And that's what happened.

It's also interesting that, being the age I am, and the difference of what this album was to what, maybe, my first album would've been if I was 28, is the intentionality in terms of radio success or chart success — or chasing something that might not be thoroughly you, but might be a little more popular than thoroughly you. There's no reason for it at my age, so I can chase what's thoroughly me, and the facets of that. And in the end, that, I think, makes better music anyway.

There's a video I put out for "Somewhere in the Sunshine." Already, the impact of that song is sort of blowing my mind. The video is full of quotes from people that commented on YouTube about who they lost, and how it's giving them a little moment of peace, and how it's blessing them. That's my radio play. That's my GRAMMY.

I try to always realize how blessed I am to be able to do this. It's so much more precious later in life. I think people sometimes meet me and I have an enthusiasm for it that is younger than my years. And, maybe [that's] just because I've been waiting at a distance so long and it finally came true. I might get jaded someday, but it hasn't happened yet.

There's still an outsider mentality. I also feel like an anomaly. All the great artist friends I have, I'm not like them. They've been on the radio, they've had cuts, they've had hits. And then, all the new ones starting off doing their first album, I'm not in their group either — they have a whole career and future ahead.

On the other hand, I feel warm and welcomed in all of those arenas, and in everyone in this town. It always has been unusual for me here. All the reasons I'm here, all the why's, all the how's — but I guess, in the end, that's how I fit, and that's how I belong.

I was blessed that I was able to take my time. I think, once you let go of the outcome, freedom is available. It's just really hard to let go of that outcome. But, as I said, I'm a different beast. What I am means I better let go of that outcome, because the odds of me getting a No. 1 smash off this, they're not great. But the odds of me moving somebody with this music? I think they're pretty good.

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How To Watch The 2024 GRAMMY Nominations: St. Vincent, Jeff Tweedy, Muni Long, Kim Petras, Jon Bon Jovi, "Weird Al" Yankovic & More To Announce The Nominees; Streaming Live Friday, Nov. 10

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How To Watch The 2024 GRAMMY Nominations: St. Vincent, Jeff Tweedy, Muni Long, Kim Petras, Jon Bon Jovi, "Weird Al" Yankovic & More To Announce The Nominees; Streaming Live Friday, Nov. 10

The nominations for the 2024 GRAMMYs will be announced on Friday, Nov 10, starting at 7:45 a.m. PT / 10:45 a.m. ET. Watch it live on live.GRAMMY.com and YouTube.

GRAMMYs/Oct 30, 2023 - 02:00 pm

It's that time again: The 2024 GRAMMYs is just a few months out — airing live Sunday, Feb. 4, from Crypto.com Arena in Los Angeles. Which means nominations for the 2024 GRAMMYs are just around the corner. On Friday, Nov 10, starting at 7:45 a.m. PT / 10:45 a.m. ET, nominations for the 2024 GRAMMYs will be announced via a livestream event airing live on live.GRAMMY.com. The nominations will also stream live on the Recording Academy's YouTube channel

The 2024 GRAMMYs nominations livestream event will feature a diverse cast of some of the leading voices in music today, including St. Vincent, Jeff Tweedy, Muni Long, Kim Petras, 2024 MusiCares Person Of The Year Jon Bon Jovi, and many others, who will be announcing the 2024 GRAMMY nominees across all 94 categories. Plus, the livestream event will also feature an exclusive GRAMMY Nominations Pre-Show and Wrap-Up Show, which will both feature exclusive videos and conversations about the biggest stories and trends to come out of the 2024 GRAMMYs nominations.

City National Bank is the Official Bank of the GRAMMYs and proud sponsor of the 66th Annual GRAMMY Awards Nominations.

See below for a full guide to the 2024 GRAMMYs nominations livestream event happening next week:

Read More: How To Watch The 2024 GRAMMYs Live: GRAMMY Nominations Announcement, Air Date, Red Carpet, Streaming Channel & More

How Can I Watch The 2024 GRAMMY Nominations? 

The nominations livestream event will stream live on live.GRAMMY.com and the Recording Academy's YouTube channel.

When Are The 2024 GRAMMY Nominations Announced?

The 2024 GRAMMYs nominations will be announced Friday, Nov 10. The day kicks off with an exclusive GRAMMY Nominations Pre-Show, starting at 7:45 a.m. PT / 10:45 a.m. ET. Hosted by Emmy-winning TV host and “GMA3” contributor Rocsi Diaz, the GRAMMY Nominations Pre-Show will give music fans an inside look at the various initiatives and campaigns that the Recording Academy, the organization behind the annual GRAMMY Awards, supports on a year-long basis on its mission to recognize excellence in the recording arts and sciences and cultivate the well-being of the music community.

Afterward, starting at 8 a.m. PT / 11 a.m. ET, the GRAMMY nominations livestream event begins. The livestream event will begin with a special presentation announcing the nominees in the General Field categories, aka the Big Six, as well as select categories. On live.GRAMMY.com, exclusive videos announcing the nominees across multiple categories will stream as a multi-screen livestream event that users can control, providing a dynamic, expansive online experience for music fans of all genres. The nomination videos will also stream live on YouTube. The full list of 2024 GRAMMYs nominees will then be published on live.GRAMMY.com and GRAMMY.com immediately following the livestream event.

After the nominations are announced, stay tuned for an exclusive GRAMMY Nominations Wrap-Up Show. Co-hosted by "Entertainment Tonight" correspondents Cassie DiLaura and Denny Directo, the Wrap-Up Show will break down all the notable news and top stories from the 2024 GRAMMYs nominations. The GRAMMY Nominations Wrap-Up Show will stream live on live.GRAMMY.com as well as the Recording Academy's YouTube channel, X profile, Twitch channel, TikTok page, Instagram profile, and Facebook page.

Watch the 2024 GRAMMYs nominations livestream event and make sure to use #GRAMMYs to join the conversation on social media as it unfolds live on Friday, Nov. 10.

The schedule for the 2024 GRAMMYs nominations livestream event is as follows:

GRAMMY Nominations Pre-Show
7:45 a.m. PT / 10:45 a.m. ET

Nominations Livestream Event
8 a.m. PT / 11 a.m. ET 

Nominations Livestream Event Ends & Full Nominations Revealed
8:25 a.m. PT / 11:25 a.m. ET 

GRAMMY Nominations Wrap-Up Show
8:25 a.m. PT / 11:25 a.m. ET

^All times are approximate and subject to change.

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Who's Announcing The 2024 GRAMMY Nominations?

Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason jr. will be joined by GRAMMY winners Arooj Aftab, Vince Gill, Amy Grant, Jimmy Jam, Jon Bon Jovi, Samara Joy, Muni Long, Cheryl Pawelski, Kim Petras, Judith Sherman, St. Vincent, Jeff Tweedy, and "Weird Al" Yankovic, along with "CBS Mornings" co-hosts Gayle King, Nate Burleson, and Tony Dokoupil, to announce all the nominees for the 2024 GRAMMYs. 

When Are The 2024 GRAMMYs?

The 2024 GRAMMYs, officially known as the 66th GRAMMY Awards, will air live on Sunday, Feb. 4, at 8-11:30 p.m. ET/5-8:30 p.m. PT from Crypto.com Arena in Los Angeles. Music's Biggest Night will air live on the CBS Television Network and stream on Paramount+. 

Mark your calendars now for the 2024 GRAMMY nominations happening Friday, Nov 10.

With additional reporting by Morgan Enos.

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GRAMMY Rewind: Kendrick Lamar Honors Hip-Hop's Greats While Accepting Best Rap Album GRAMMY For 'To Pimp a Butterfly' In 2016
Kendrick Lamar

Photo: Jeff Kravitz/FilmMagic

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GRAMMY Rewind: Kendrick Lamar Honors Hip-Hop's Greats While Accepting Best Rap Album GRAMMY For 'To Pimp a Butterfly' In 2016

Upon winning the GRAMMY for Best Rap Album for 'To Pimp a Butterfly,' Kendrick Lamar thanked those that helped him get to the stage, and the artists that blazed the trail for him.

GRAMMYs/Oct 13, 2023 - 06:01 pm

Updated Friday Oct. 13, 2023 to include info about Kendrick Lamar's most recent GRAMMY wins, as of the 2023 GRAMMYs.

A GRAMMY veteran these days, Kendrick Lamar has won 17 GRAMMYs and has received 47 GRAMMY nominations overall. A sizable chunk of his trophies came from the 58th annual GRAMMY Awards in 2016, when he walked away with five — including his first-ever win in the Best Rap Album category.

This installment of GRAMMY Rewind turns back the clock to 2016, revisiting Lamar's acceptance speech upon winning Best Rap Album for To Pimp A Butterfly. Though Lamar was alone on stage, he made it clear that he wouldn't be at the top of his game without the help of a broad support system. 

"First off, all glory to God, that's for sure," he said, kicking off a speech that went on to thank his parents, who he described as his "those who gave me the responsibility of knowing, of accepting the good with the bad."

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He also extended his love and gratitude to his fiancée, Whitney Alford, and shouted out his Top Dawg Entertainment labelmates. Lamar specifically praised Top Dawg's CEO, Anthony Tiffith, for finding and developing raw talent that might not otherwise get the chance to pursue their musical dreams.

"We'd never forget that: Taking these kids out of the projects, out of Compton, and putting them right here on this stage, to be the best that they can be," Lamar — a Compton native himself — continued, leading into an impassioned conclusion spotlighting some of the cornerstone rap albums that came before To Pimp a Butterfly.

"Hip-hop. Ice Cube. This is for hip-hop," he said. "This is for Snoop Dogg, Doggystyle. This is for Illmatic, this is for Nas. We will live forever. Believe that."

To Pimp a Butterfly singles "Alright" and "These Walls" earned Lamar three more GRAMMYs that night, the former winning Best Rap Performance and Best Rap Song and the latter taking Best Rap/Sung Collaboration (the song features Bilal, Anna Wise and Thundercat). He also won Best Music Video for the remix of Taylor Swift's "Bad Blood." 

Lamar has since won Best Rap Album two more times, taking home the golden gramophone in 2018 for his blockbuster LP DAMN., and in 2023 for his bold fifth album, Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers.

Watch Lamar's full acceptance speech above, and check back at GRAMMY.com every Friday for more GRAMMY Rewind episodes. 

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