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Yvonne Orji

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Yvonne Orji On Her First-Ever HBO Comedy Special, Faith & Celebrating Black Joy

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Quarantining from her home in Los Angeles, the Nigerian-American comedian spoke to GRAMMY.com about the overwhelmingly positive response around "Momma, I Made It!," her forthcoming memoir and much more
Rachel Brodsky
GRAMMYs
Jul 8, 2020 - 9:33 am

Like her first-ever HBO comedy special states, Yvonne Orji has made it. The Nigerian-American actress and comedian has been on the come-up for a few years now, securing her first major role—sans agent!—in 2015 playing Issa Rae's best friend Molly Carter on HBO's smash hit "Insecure," which recently wrapped its fourth season. But what many fans of the show might not realize is that Orji has been on the comedy circuit since the mid-'00s, starting with a stand-up stint while competing in the Miss Nigeria in America pageant in 2006. From there, Orji, who also has a master's in Public Health from George Washington University, did stand-up at clubs in New York and Los Angeles and, in 2018, nabbed an opening slot for comedy king and GRAMMY winner Chris Rock.     

Now, Orji is enjoying a wave of praise for her very own televised special "Momma, I Made It!," which was released in June on HBO. Filmed at the Howard Theater in Washington, D.C., and partially in Orji's native Lagos, Orji spends the majority of her hour dropping hilarious anecdotes about her Nigerian-American experience, telling her mother she wanted to be a comedian ("I said, 'Momma, I want to do comedy'... SHE heard, 'So, you want to prostitute youself all about the world!'") and sharing her shock and delight at being able to set her bills to autopay.

Even though her parents have long since gotten on board with her comedy career, Orji jokes a lot that they'd be even happier if she'd just get married already. 

"It’s like, sure, they want me to be happy, but in the back of their mind they're also like, 'Can you be happy with a nice Nigerian man who's also possibly Ibo?' And I'm just like, 'I can't make any promises,'" Orji laughs over the phone.

Quarantining from her home in Los Angeles, Orji spoke to GRAMMY.com about the overwhelmingly positive response around "Momma, I Made It!," separating Yvonne the comedian from her very different "Insecure" character and why now—in the time of coronavirus and the Black Lives Matter movement—it's more important than ever to show and experience Black joy.

So, with the pandemic still going on, are you getting to spend lots of time in that house you talked about purchasing in "Momma, I Made It!"?

I am. And it's like the more time I spend in it, the more money I'm spending on it. It's so funny the things you notice when you're at home. You're like, "You know what? I should also... And I think I need to..." 

So, I'm definitely sinking more money into it. I'm hoping that I get to enjoy it, but high-key I feel like whoever buys this house from me is going to enjoy it in a very interesting way.

It seems like kind of a natural fit that you’d do a comedy special on HBO, given how you more or less have one foot in the door with "Insecure." When did HBO originally approach you to do this?

So, HBO had come out to see me, I want to say early 2018. I was opening up at Caroline's as part of the New York City Comedy Festival in 2018. We'd kind of been having the conversations and they wanted to see my [comedy] hour, etc. And then I think we'd gotten busy with filming ["Insecure"], etc. And then at the end of 2018, I also had another run in New York and they came out again. And that's when we were just like, "All right, I feel like you've seen the beginning of it. You've seen it 12 months afterwards." And so, they were like, "Okay, let's make this happen."

Oh wow, that much lead up?

Well, we did the deal in December 2018. [Then] I took 2019 off to write my book. And then we started filming “Insecure.” And so, we already knew that in 2020 I would do a tour and then we would shoot the special for the special to be released in 2020.

I looked at my schedule and I was like, the only time I could actually do a tour is this sliver of time between January and February. And I was like, "It's a winter tour. Why do I do this to myself?" I had no clue Corona would be happening—I was more worried about snow. Who knew a global pandemic was on the rise? So, yeah. It actually all worked out because then I was able to do a 13-city tour, finish it up in D.C. when I shot the special. And then they gave the [air] date of June because they were like, "’Insecure’'s going to be going. You have a built-in audience. We think it'd be great to happen around the same time—a summertime special." So, I'm like, "Okay, great."

[I] did not know the world would be burning, Black lives still needed to be mattering in the way that they are, we still need to be having that messaging of like, "Hey, Black lives still matter," and also, "Wear your mask." So, it was like so many things happening when the special came out. And I was, "All right. Is this a good time? What?"

Yeah, you must be experiencing an odd combination of feelings—because on one hand, streaming services like HBO are doing all they can to showcase content to amplify Black voices. But on the other hand, getting to this place has been incredibly traumatic, societally speaking. Not to mention, you’ve lost the ability to promote the special in-person.

Yeah. I understood HBO's strategy when they picked the date. And I was like, "Oh, 6/6. Great, yes." And I was like, "You're absolutely right. We'll be towards the end of the season. And it's going to be a great season. Hahaha." And then it was like, "Okay, Corona."

Prentice Penny, our showrunner, had his movie premiere [for Uncorked]. And he couldn't do South by Southwest and it was a letdown. He'd been building up to his directorial debut as a feature filmmaker. And I remember that moment of just being like, "Hey man, listen, you're going to have a captive audience. Everyone will be at home. It's going to be fine."

Slowly but surely, it was like, "Well, we can't do the talk shows. We can't do the press." I was like, "Oh my gosh. Okay. All right. Well, I can't be encouraging in this crisis and then be mad that I also got caught up in the whirlwind of things that couldn't happen in Corona." And so, I was like, "Okay, well, same thing applies." Penny’s movie became number one on Netflix because literally, everybody had finished watching everything else on Netflix. So, it was just like, "Well, at least the ratings will be good. People will be at home to see it."

And then the week of [my premiere], all the protests happened. George Floyd was murdered. The country was in a upheaval. And I was just like, "Yeah, no, this is very much different than “We can't go outside.” I don't know how to say, 'Hey guys, I know things look bleak. You just want to support me and watch my special?'" I was like, "No, there's no way to say that and not seem tone deaf and not seem... " And I was prepared. I was like, "This might just be a casualty of what it is."

And I saw “Insecure” come out in episode eight, which is the episode where Issa and Jay kind of melt all of our hearts and fall in love all over again. And just the response of that, people were like, "Man, we needed this 30 minutes. We needed to see Black love. We needed to laugh. We needed to see Black joy." And I was just like, "You know what? Rather than looking at it as a negative, we need levity." Trust me, America does not want Black people angry all the time because it's not going to end well for somebody, and it's not going to be Black people. And so, it's like in the midst of the process, in the midst of the fighting for justice, we need to take off the cape for just a second and laugh.

Black joy has been something that was always celebrated, was always necessary. And I think that's just the way that I chose to look at it. And leading up to it, I went through my phone and it was just very nostalgic for me really just to look at trips I had taken, things that made me laugh. I found this Instagram page that was just slides of Black people laughing. And I was like, "What are they doing?" and I just started laughing. So, I posted. I took three hours just posting a moment for Black joy. And I just was like, "From my moments of Black joy, from other people's moments of Black joy."

And then I talked to HBO and I was like, "Yo, we need to tell the world that Black joy is a form of activism as well." And so, we created that video of just all the things that Black joy is.

Speaking of “Insecure,” was it tricky to get the general public to separate you—Yvonne the comedian—from self-serious Molly?

It was so funny because this was definitely a very difficult season for Molly in terms of the fans' acceptance of her. They were not accepting. They were not here for me or my character. And so, it's funny because the trailer dropped about a month before and people were like, "Are we going to watch this?" or, "We going to support Yvonne because I can't not see her as Molly?" And I'm like, "Guys." And then you had this Twitter battle of people being like, "We have to learn to separate the actors from the roles they play." I was like, "Thank you." I was kind of letting the interwebs do their thing. And I think overall, I think the excitement of like, "Well, let's see what she gon' talk about." And there was that, "We didn't know the girl from ‘Insecure’ did comedy." And once people had the screeners, their response was like, "Wait. No, guys, you for real have to watch this." Questlove from The Roots was like, "I love this." And all the different outlets that we went out to saying, "No, this is a worthy watch," I think that also really helped.

And then when people did watch it, it was just kind of like, "Wait, we feel like we were transported to Nigeria. Yvonne's mom is the true star of the show. Can we get that whole entire outfit?" I think people were just discovering me in a way that they didn't even know they missed. They were just like, "I didn't even know that I needed this, but I'm glad I got it." [When people said] "I've watched this three to five times already," I'm like, "You have?" I was like, "Are you editing it? Because that's how many times I watched it while I was in the editing process."

Yeah, how did you feel watching yourself back that many times?

I was trying to make it the best it could be. I'm very Nigerian. I was like, "I got to get an A-plus on this." I told HBO, "I'm giving you a comedy special/documentary/music video." And they were like, "What?" I was like, "Just don't believe me. Just watch." So, I had my own theme song created. I had Chris Robinson, who does all of the music videos, direct it. It came out exactly how I wanted it.

Then when I was watching it the day of with people on Twitter, it was like, "Oh my god! They laughed! They got it! Yes! They're retweeting." But it was definitely different to watch it with an audience than by myself in a dark hole in my room.

I love how your comedy explores what parents expect of their children and how those expectations can be such a moving target. For instance, you’ve experienced a ton of career success over the last few years, and yet your family is constantly questioning you about when you’ll meet a man and get married.

It's like, "I'm trying my best. It's not on me, guys. It's not on me." It’s like, sure, they want me to be happy, but in the back of their mind they're also like, "Can you be happy with a nice Nigerian man who's also possibly Ebo?" And I'm just like, "I can't make any promises."

The special hops back and forth between you performing onstage and then spending quality time in Nigeria with your family. With the pandemic still going on, do you have any idea when you'd be able to see your parent in-person again?

No, for sure. So many things happened. They were supposed to come in May and then their flight in Nigeria got canceled. And then it was like, "Oh, well, I guess they won't be here for the special." So, then it was like, "Let's go in July." And then it just got worse. Their flight also got canceled. So, I'm like, "Father in heaven, when am I going to see them?" Because they don't like being in America when it's cold. And there's a very short window because they spend time in Maryland. Obviously, if they came to L.A. it'd be a little bit warmer. But still, their home base is Maryland. I don't even know what it's looking like in terms of them coming to America this year. Obviously, I miss them, but I also want them to be healthy. And they need to get their checkups. And it's all the real things that you're dealing with in real time.

How do you keep in touch when they're overseas?

We WhatsApp. We have a family group chat to make sure that everyone is okay and protected, etc. But the special airs in Nigeria on July 1. So, that's going to be very exciting for all of their friends to be able to get to see. They've seen it, but now it's like everyone else is going to see it. So, they send me messages of like, "Mrs. So-and-so saw it and this is what she said." I'm like, "Okay. All right. Okay." So, I'm not in a lot of trouble, but my mom did see it and say, "You are talking about me a lot." I'm like, "Yeah! It's called 'Momma, I Made It.' I'm going to talk about you." And she's just like, "Well, you know, I'm just saying." 

The special hones in on Nigerian parent-child dynamics, but I bet lots of other children of immigrants could relate to everything you described. Did you find that to be the case?

It's so funny. A lot of the messages have been like, "I am Latin American and I know that story," or, "I am Asian American and I know that story," or, "My parents are from X, Y and Z." And it's just like, "Wow, we really are all similar in our own specific kind of ways."

I’m so excited to see what you do next. What can you tell us about the memoir you’ve written, coming out next year?

It's called Bamboozled by Jesus: How God Tricked Me into the Life of My Dreams. I feel like, especially with the special, I've come to a beautiful bookend for the end of a chapter in my life. And I'm not so far removed from the beginning stages of having a dream to seeing it through that I can't look back and help the next generation who have an improbable dream. I’m like, "Hey, if there's anything at all you see in my life, I'm not only showing you how I did it, but obviously my faith is an anchor to my success and so many things in my life."

I'm actually paralleling my journey with journeys of other people from the Bible who also had a battle of integrity. I'll tell a story about when I had to lean into integrity and why that's so much more important than just getting success. Success without integrity: [that’s] not going to be sustainable. It's like, "Here's my journey on an integrity moment that was in question. And then here's somebody else in the Bible who also was challenged. And look at how it turned out for both of us."

A lot of times people find things when they're 85 and on their death bed or after they get a family and it's like, "Well, I guess, God can come into my life now." But for me, I got saved when I was 17 and I developed a really cool friendship with him. And I'm 36 now. I'm like, "Yo, I don't want to wait until 50 to be like, 'Hey God.'" I want to enjoy what that looks like now. And I'm kind of battling against [people saying] "The Bible is outdated," or, ""God or religion is not pertinent or relevant to our lives today.” And I'm like, "I beg to differ."

Yeah, I was aware that you value your faith very deeply. I’ve always wondered—comedian culture as we know it can often be a cynical, non-believing sort of place. It makes me think about what the dynamic is like when you travel in comedian circles. Does it matter?

I think when you meet me, you know three things about me. I say it all the time. I love to laugh and smile. I love God. And I love a good body roll. And I lead with like, "Yo, God is my homeboy." But it's not in a way that's off-putting. It's not in a way that's like, "I can't hang out with you.”

Actually, people have messed up the purity of Christianity. Jesus walked with people that [didn’t believe in him]. I'm very confident in who I am. So, obviously you have to kind of protect your space, like who gets in the inner court, but it's not to be like, "Hey, I'm Christian so thus, you go over there and I can't hang out with you or learn anything new from you or enjoy your company." I think, for me, that's what I like to show. It’s just like, "Yo, faith is actually really inclusive. It's people who mess it up. It's people who shun other people in the name of faith." And I'm like, "That's called the division."

Looking into the future, are you more interested in leaning into comedy or acting, or balancing a combination of both?

Well, it's funny because after the special, everyone was like, "When's the next one?" I'm like, "Everybody calm down." I was like, "This was not built in five seconds. This took time to curate." It's funny because it's like the thing you enjoy about something, you enjoy it because there was attention to detail that was paid.

I think we're also in a place where I don't know what comedy looks like or acting, for that matter, looks like right now because, when are we going to be allowed to act again? Are we going to be able to gather again in groups of 300 to 3,000?

I don't know what either one of these mediums look like, but comedy is definitely one of those things that you don't dispose of because it allows people to get to know the you that you are. A character is a character. And some characters are amazing. And I'm grateful to play one that I enjoy and also learn from. But I'm so grateful, after the special, that people really got to know a little bit more about the person I am, the person behind the character. So, I think it's a two-hander. You work both of them.

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King Bach

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King Bach On His Comedy Album 'Medicine,' Loving Ludacris & Trying Not To Throw Up

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The YouTube and former Vine star opens up to the Recording Academy about creating his first comedy album, who he listened to growing up and why laughter has been a cure-all in his life
Rachel Brodsky
GRAMMYs
Oct 4, 2019 - 12:54 pm

Andrew Bachelor, otherwise known as rising comedy titan King Bach, is definitely on his way to achieving royalty. 

Starting out producing comedy sketches on YouTube, Bachelor eventually switched to the now-defunct short-form outpost Vine, where he'd go on to amass more than 15 million subscribers and more than five billion views. Nowadays, the funnyman is dipping his toes into the TV and music world, where he currently stars in IFC's variety sketch series "Sherman's Showcase," among other things.

Meanwhile, Medicine, which dropped in mid-August, is his debut comedy album, and is filled with 15 true-to-life tracks—with music videos—that skewer everything from his weak stomach ("Bulimic") to the lies people tell each other when they first meet ("Secrets"). 

Below, Bachelor opens up to the Recording Academy about why laughter is truly the best Medicine, who he listened to growing up and the different ways he utilizes social-media platforms to reach new audiences. 

What sparked the idea to make a comedy album?

I've always loved music, ever since I was younger. And when I started making the comedy skits, I actually thought of making a parody music video, and I just love putting together music that people just like to listen to and have fun with listening to it and having a laugh at the same time.

So I figured why not make original music that I own and, I could just share with everyone and not feel any type of way of me taking someone else's style. This is my style, my unique style. So yeah and then I figured it's a comedy album and they're saying laughter is the best medicine, so I named the album Medicine, because every track they're laughing at.

Who did you listen to growing up?

I listen to a lot of Ludacris, Ludacris is my favorite rapper since I was little. Just his style, his energy, I like songs that have a lot of energy behind them. Now music has changed though we realize, that energy has kind of tapered down a little bit. So most artists, it's a lot of mumbling going on, it's more like vibes and feeling it out as opposed to the lyrics. So I'm doing a mixture of both.

Yeah, we've been hearing a lot of "genre labels don't matter anymore" nowadays.

Yeah the whole thing is, what I realized in doing comedies, why it's so good, when you're laughing about a joke or anything, you forget all your problems. You forget about the bad day you had, you forget about your breakup, you forget about somebody who's passing. You just forget about everything and you're literally focused on that joke that that made you laugh in that moment. So that's the mood that I want people to feel like when they listen to the album, they can just forget about everything else and just enjoy the music and just stay present.

Have you personally used comedy as a coping mechanism?

Yeah, with everything, it kind of puts me in a better mood and lets me forget. The way I look at is, I'm being myself, I am being unique. Some people may find it funny but I'm being me, like these are my point of views. Every song on the album is a situation that happened in my life. So it's a situation that happened in my life and I took it and I found the comedy in it.

There's a song on there called "Bulimic." I have a very weak stomach and throughout the days I'm constantly trying to stop myself from throwing up. And it's just been something I've dealt with since I've been seven years old. So I tried to find the light of that and I made a song called "what you going to do if I throw up on you?"

Are any other themes that have come up repeatedly in your comedy that you've touched on with Medicine?

Yeah, there's a song on there called "Secrets," and it's about everyone letting out the secrets and being honest. And the way I directed in film, that music video was pretty much like a YouTube skit. The concept of the video was the speed dating situation, and everyone thinks that speed dating is going regular, but then the speed dating announcer, he announces that she puts truth serum in the guys drink. And it forces them to let out their deepest and darkest secrets. So these guys are confessing their secrets against their will. So that's how I kind of shoot my skits as well, I come up with a concept and I just shoot it around that.

You became pretty famous from using Vine, which sadly doesn’t exist any longer. Have you embraced the similar-minded Tik Tok to create the same short-form comedy? 

Yeah, listen, I'm a creator at the end of the day and I am on the social media application. So I'm on Tik Tok, I'm on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, I'm on everything. And I'll just take one video and I'll just post it everywhere. So if someone only has Tik Tok, they're getting it on Tik Tok. If they only have Facebook, they're getting on Facebook, so I use them all. You name the app, I got it.

So what's your strategy when deciding how to best utilize different apps?

I kind of see how the platform is being used and I kind of adapt to that. So Tik Tok is more music-based, so if I have an idea and it's music based and it's a fun, bubbly, energetic vibe that'll go on Tik Tok. So yeah definitely got to think about, it's like you got to know your audience.

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Ronny Chieng in Netflix's 'Asian Comedian Destroys America!'

Ronny Chieng in Netflix's 'Asian Comedian Destroys America!'

Photo: Marcus Russell Price/Netflix

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Ronny Chieng On His Debut Netflix Comedy Special, The Future Of Live Comedy And The Importance Of Diversity In Storytelling

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Quarantining from Sydney, Australia, the funnyman spoke with GRAMMY.com about the perceptive messages behind 'Asian Comedian Destroys America!' and why he still believes in the American experiment
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Aug 2, 2020 - 6:00 am

The opening of Ronny Chieng's 2019 Netflix standup comedy special, Asian Comedian Destroys America!, is almost prophetic. In the first 10 minutes, he spills biting critiques about the return of infectious diseases like the measles, the rise in "stupid anti-vaccination idiots," the role the internet plays in making people dumber and how Amazon makes it so you never have to leave your house to buy anything—all things highly relevant in today's pandemic-struck world. It's like a dark comedy turned accidental prophecy.

"Predicting the worst things to happen in the world, turns out, isn't that hard," he tells GRAMMY.com by phone while quarantining in Sydney, Australia. "You just have to assume everything's going to be terrible."

Released last December, the special sees Chieng ridiculing the absurdities of American culture from an outsider's perspective. He destroys America's addiction to hyper-consumerism—"We need [Amazon] Prime harder, faster, stronger … Prime Now … When I press buy, put the item in my hand, now!"—and obsession with individual freedoms. 

Chieng, who was born in Malaysia and reared in Manchester, New Hampshire, Singapore and Australia, brings a truly international point of view to his comedy and special. And even though his jabs against American culture are painfully, and hilariously, revealing, his sharp takes come from a place of love. 

"I think the American values are universal and I think people get behind that," he says. "That's why immigrants go to America, because they see something there in the ideology of what the country is supposed to be about. Now, the execution in America is not always [clear,] as we've seen since the founding of America. The execution of those ideals has never been perfect. But I think the fact that America, hopefully, is striving towards those ideals of equality is what draws people there."

Of course, Chieng has never shied away from calling out stupidity in America and around the world. As a correspondent on "The Daily Show With Trevor Noah" since 2015, he's tackled everything from coronavirus misinformation to frivolous lawsuits against food companies. The beloved show's commitment to finding a deeper meaning within seemingly simple jokes, he says, has impacted his own approach to comedy. It's a concept he practiced in Asian Comedian Destroys America!

"'The Daily Show' changed the way I think of comedy forever now," he says. "I feel like I definitely think of jokes now in terms of, 'What are you trying to say with the joke? Is what you're trying to say intentional or not? Is this really the message you want to put out there?' I think I feel a little bit of an additional burden to make sure that I represent myself and, by extension, Asian people in general in a certain way. I want to represent them with power and dignity and strength and intelligence."

GRAMMY.com spoke with Ronny Chieng about the perceptive messages behind Asian Comedian Destroys America!, the future of live comedy and the importance of racial diversity and authenticity in mainstream storytelling.

Even though you released your special last December, it talks about a lot of issues we're experiencing as a society right now in terms of global health and race relations. When you think back on the special through this lens, how does it feel to have basically predicted our current situation?  

I wish I could have predicted the stock market; that would actually have been useful. Predicting the worst things to happen in the world, turns out, isn't that hard. You just have to assume everything's going to be terrible.

I was trying to give a timestamp to the special, actually ... Not that I didn't want it to be a classic, timeless special, but I just wanted people to know the context in which I was making it and I was writing it and I was performing it. This was the world we were in … So I was deliberately trying to make sure people understood that this was me in America in 2019, and I guess I'm kinda of glad I did that ... I want people to know that I was thinking of this before all this happened.

In the special, you make a case for an Asian-American president. In your opinion, how would an Asian-American president handle this kind of double-barreled blast of a pandemic and nationwide protests?

I think the spirit of the joke was that Asian people will approach problem-solving with logic and science-solution-based ideas. So I would love to believe that if an Asian person [were] president, they would do the same thing. I don't want to point fingers here, but you look at the Asian countries and how they handled the coronavirus outbreak, and most of them handled it a lot better than America: Singapore, Vietnam, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea. So bringing some of that scientific-based thinking into American politics, I think, could help.

And with regards to the nationwide protests, I'll be damned if I know how to solve any of this; it's a mess. But again, in the spirit of the joke, I think there's something towards having a third-party race that acts as a referee in situations, that has no racial agenda [and] who just wants things to work and wants things to work well. I think everyone could benefit from that kind of approach ... a more logical and unbiased approach would help everything.

In past interviews, you've talked about the rise in cultural influence of Asian-Americans in the U.S. We are seeing an explosion of Asian and Asian-American culture and creatives breaking through the American mainstream. As an Asian living in America, how does it make you feel to see your people and culture reflected on such a national level nowadays?

Obviously, it feels great to have your ideas and stories being told from an authentic point of view. So for me, storytelling is all about authenticity, and I just feel like the problem with having Asian side characters isn't so much that they are side characters—it's that there's no authenticity in it. It's basically tokenistic.

As someone who consumes a lot of culture, essentially I consume stories. Whether it's standup or movies or television shows, I'm a consumer of storytelling. So it's nice to see people who you can relate to in these stories, because I think for the longest time, we never saw any of that … So we got used to that, until we see stories being told from these authentic and powerful points of view. Then we go, "Oh yeah, we were missing this."

So I think that feeling is what's causing, as you described it, this kind of surge in Asian-American storytelling … I think there's always a search for the original story. We've never told these stories. We've never told them from this point of view. I think people are seeing how interesting that can be.

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And also, I think that society's demographic is changing ... I think I read a stat that Generation Z is going to be the most diverse generation in American history in terms of racial demographics. So part of seeing Asian people in storytelling in the West, it's just seeing stories reflecting actual society. We grow up and we see Asian people all the time. They're all around us, but then they're not in the stories that we tell in the West. I think, as the younger generation comes up ... it's not about diversity when we see Asian people or black people. It's about seeing actual society because that's how we understand society to be ... If you watch a TV show or a movie and there are no Asian people or no Black people or no Mexican people in America, you're almost like, "What? How is this America?" It's coming to a point where if you don't tell these stories, it becomes inauthentic storytelling.

I'm in the business of storytelling, so obviously it's nice that people want to hear my stories now. But also as just a consumer, it's nice to see those stories being told on TV; you feel empowered by it. I think storytelling affects society, which affects culture. It has real-world ramifications. If you only see Asian people in storytelling in a certain way, then that's how you think about them in real life.

It's getting increasingly harder to smile or laugh these days. In your eyes, what is the role of comedy today? What can the art form provide for everyday comedy fans in our current situation?

I think comedy helps to lighten people's mood and it helps them hopefully get through a day. I think laughter is such a release for people from the tensions of the day, so I think it's really good for mental health. I think it can help you deal with unpleasant situations a little bit better ... Either you yourself, or you see someone else making fun of a situation which you encountered that frustrated you ... and then you see a bunch of other people laughing at that same joke, and [you're] like, "Oh yeah, all these people agree, so I'm not alone, I'm not a weirdo."

Comedy, in a way, can support you in that way, indirectly. Even though you don't know any of these people, you don't know the comic, you don't know the audiences, but you feel supported that your view of the world, other people agree with it, even if maybe you weren't able to express it in that way ... Regardless of your emotional response, we all are talking about the same situation; we are still experiencing that same thing, whatever that joke was about. I feel like maybe that's a way people can deal with their emotions, maybe in a more positive way.

I think there's also a chance, with comedy, to see other people's point of view … whether you're left-leaning and then you see a more conservative comic making his point of view, or you're a conservative person and you see a more liberal comic making that point of view. It's a chance to see other points of view being expressed that you might not always encounter in your life.

You come from a standup comedy background, an industry that has been devastated by the pandemic. What do you think live comedy will look like in a post-pandemic world?

Damn, it's not looking good. Right now, it's looking like a lot of outdoor gigs. I've seen in New York, they're already trying to do more Central Park shows, they're trying to do shows literally in car parks on the back of a truck.

It's sad ... It's my primary profession, so this wasn't a side gig for me; this was my main thing. But I'm pretty hopeful of two things. One: I'm hopeful that comedy will adapt. I think what I've seen over the last couple of months is that people want it ... So it might go back to its roots a little bit, where comedy was always a room of 30-50 people. It's become theaters and arenas and stadiums, but really, comedy was for like 30-40 people in a room. Maybe it might go back to that, smaller numbers.

The other thing I'm hopeful for is that the strength of America is in its innovation. Maybe not its response to emergencies, but in its innovation, America's No. 1, so I'm still crossing my fingers for a vaccine. [Laughs.] And if a vaccine happens in the next year, then I think we can go back to the way it was before in terms of comedy audiences showing up to clubs.

Read: Facing Lockdown, Ed Helms Is Spreading The Joys Of Americana, Bluegrass And Comedy With His "Whiskey Sour Happy Hour" Online Series

But one thing I have seen—it's still early days, and I'm no longer in New York—but people are showing up. And if you do a gig, people will just show up. I think, if anything, [the pandemic has] shown how indispensable standup comedy is. People just need it. They're willing to risk everything. Performers and audiences are willing to risk everything just to tell these dick jokes ... So for better or for worse, people are still showing up for comedy.

People who are still doing it, they're not doing it for money anymore … It's America, so I would love to see everyone get paid, but there is something powerful in [that]. When people do comedy now, it's purely for self-expression, because there is no money in it, and you're literally risking your life doing a show.

You recently told the "CBS This Morning" podcast that "The Daily Show" changed your approach to comedy in that it makes you think about the message behind the joke in addition to the joke itself. Similarly, your special carries a lot of messages about race, about your experience as a non-U.S. citizen in America. Do you foresee your comedy in the future always having this kind of deeper meaning?

"The Daily Show" changed the way I think of comedy forever now. I feel like I definitely think of jokes now in terms of, "What are you trying to say with the joke? Is what you're trying to say intentional or not? Is this really the message you want to put out there?" I think I feel a little bit of an additional burden to make sure that I represent myself and, by extension, Asian people in general in a certain way. I want to represent them with power and dignity and strength and intelligence.

So the jokes that I do, I keep asking myself, "If this is funny and it works, is it sending the right message?" But the more I do comedy, I think the better I get at telling funny jokes that say what I want them to say. And you can do it subtly or you can do it overtly, but as long as it is saying what you want it to say, and of course that it's funny. That's the real challenge for me, [finding] a combination of those two things. It gets easier for me to find those jokes and make them say what I want them to say, easier. I think it's a combination of getting older, more experienced with comedy writing, and knowing my voice better—knowing what I want to say [and] how I want to say it.

Do you feel your special accomplished that goal?

Yeah, if I do say so myself. I'm very happy with it. I'm happy with how it looked. I'm happy with the material; I was working on it for two years ... I'm really happy with Netflix and my producer at All Things Comedy, Mike Bertolina, and the director, Sebastian DiNatale, [and] everyone who worked on it. It was the first time I was given that [many] resources and creative control to do something that just had my name on it. They all supported that; everyone really supported the vision. I'm always very critical with my own performances. 

But overall, I'm really happy with how it turned out, and I think it sent the message that I wanted it to send, even visually. For example, one of the visual themes in the special was—I wanted it to be [like] American show business, because I felt like Asian performers in America were never given that platform, [like] that Johnny Carson show. I wanted to recreate that feeling, that kind of classic American show-business vibe, and have someone on there who not only is an Asian person, but is talking about things not just for an Asian audience. Speaking for myself, everyone gets what they want out of the art that you create, but I personally feel like I achieved that.

Your special ends on a really uplifting note about racial harmony and finding the genuine niceness in strangers. There's been a lot of conversations about race and racial harmony in America these past few months. Where do you see this country going in the future in terms of race relations? How do we get through this turmoil as a society?

Dude, like I said before, I'll be damned if I can solve racism in America. [Laughs.] But I will say that I think the American values are universal and I think people get behind that. That's why immigrants go to America, because they see something there in the ideology of what the country is supposed to be about. Now, the execution in America is not always [clear,] as we've seen since the founding of America. The execution of those ideals has never been perfect. But I think the fact that America, hopefully, is striving towards those ideals of equality is what draws people there.

And then on a less philosophical note, if you want some actual hard data to be hopeful about, I think Generation Z is the most diverse generation. I think they'll be better equipped to handle a lot of this for many reasons. One: They've grown up with technology. Two: They've grown up with a lot of people around them who aren't of the same race, so I think they'll be more harmonious in their approach ... Again, I'm no sociologist, but I think what we're seeing right now is the last death throes of an older generational way of thinking. For me, this battle, as much as it is racial, it's also generational. I think it's old versus new, what we're seeing a lot of right now. I personally hope that "new" wins, because I think "new" is more progressive and I think they're less racist.

You have this great joke in your special about how Chinese citizens and non-U.S. foreigners look at America as being the best. You compare America to being the NBA. Given everything that's happening here recently, do you still stand by that belief that America is the best?

It's tough to judge someone when they are at a low point. If you judge anyone by their lowest point, no one is going to look good. Undoubtedly, I think America is at a bit of a low point right now. Do I still believe in the experiment? Yeah, I do, and that's why I'm going back. Even now, I just think of [America] as home … Is America the best? I think how it handles the next year will really determine.

One thing that is hopeful is that I think it's the only country that is capable of change like this ... a country that's capable of change through citizen protesting, through democracy, essentially; that's not as common as you would think. A lot of other countries wouldn't let it even get to this point where people can protest and air their views publicly. Obviously in America, it hasn't been just smooth protests. But I feel like the protests are making change happen. I think laws have been changed already, I think some people have been arrested. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, in America, I think change is still possible, which for a lot of countries it's not.

Yvonne Orji On Her First-Ever HBO Comedy Special, Faith & Celebrating Black Joy

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The Twilite Tone

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The Twilite Tone Finds New Dimensions Of Sound On Debut Solo Album

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GRAMMY.com talks to the decorated producer about 'The Clearing,' science fiction, his studio setup and the spread of hip-hop in Chicago
Jack Riedy
GRAMMYs
Oct 12, 2020 - 10:31 am

The Twilite Tone is a dimension of sound and mind. The producer and songwriter also known as Anthony Khan has been making music for over three decades. He produced nearly every track on Common’s debut 1992 album Can I Borrow A Dollar?, helping to bring Chicago hip-hop to national prominence. After DJing for years, he returned to producing in the '10s, bringing the iconic Super Beagle sample to Kanye West’s GOOD Music posse cut "Mercy" and co-producing an entire Gorillaz album, Humanz, with Damon Albarn.

On Khan's debut solo album, The Clearing, he blends funk, disco, house, hip-hop, boogie and pop across 14 instrumental tracks. It’s an audio odyssey rooted in rhythm, with thumping grooves perfectly stitched together like a dancefloor DJ set that's still subtle enough for repeated listens on headphones. The album, out now via famed hip-hop label Stones Throw, is a fitting companion to the label’s roster of instrumental hip-hop by producers like Knxwledge and J Dilla.

Khan is in an enviable position after decades of making music: promoting his solo debut while visiting Atlanta to work on Kanye West’s next album, and still making time to read a bedtime story to his 6-year-old daughter every night. GRAMMY.com spoke to The Twilite Tone over video chat from Atlanta in early September about science fiction, his studio setup and the spread of hip-hop in Chicago.

What inspired you to release your first album?

About three years ago, I started composing this album and I realized that people knew about all my accomplishments, my affiliations and my reputation, but I didn't feel like they knew my sound. Producing on a song like "Mercy," you kind of get overshadowed if they don't outright put "Produced by the Twilite Tone." And I said, you know, forget always celebrating the things I've done and who I'm affiliated with. I want people to respect me now. Let me make an instrumental album where I don't have to depend on anyone and nothing is on top of it to deter you, or distract you, or deflect you, of who and what this is. So when I say instrumental album, I mean that, these aren't beats, these are instrumentals.

It sounds like you weren't ever interested in collaborating with anyone externally. Did you ever think about adding vocals yourself or writing vocal melodies to go on top? Or did you focus on making an instrumental project from the get-go?

The latter. Some of these songs did have top lines before, whether it was by me or it was other people, but I just felt like these songs, for some reason, they were speaking to me. I felt like it would be more impactful as instrumentals. And I felt like it wasn't time for people to hear my voice in that way, yet. Let me establish myself this way, sonically first, and I'll grow to that.

You've been around for a long time, and for a good chunk of that time, you were a background figure. Was there a turning point for you where you said, "Okay, I really want to put myself out there as me and establish myself as an individual"?

The turning point for me was DJing for Common the last four to eight years, where he would call me to do gigs with him when his regular DJ wouldn't be able to show up. He's only going based on his memory of me being a great DJ, I have far evolved from that, I wasn't even listening to rap music like that, let alone his music. And he would call me to do these intricate shows. I'd literally get the music and the show'd be tomorrow, and no rehearsal. I learned a lot from looking at how people galvanized around Common, and other artists that I work with. It was motivating and inspiring me to want to do it myself.

I selfishly started working on me and my project. I tried to work with other people [at the start], but it's like gathering up a crew and not having a ship. "'Okay, we got the crew together.' Well, I'm waiting on the guys to build the ship. ‘Well, call us when you got the ship.'" I guess what I'm saying is, I navigated on other people's ships. And I just was like, man, I think I want to go out on my own and do my own exploration, I think there's things that I could discover. And I appreciate being on these ships and learning what I've learned, no knock to all the different people I've worked with, but I'm ready to row row row my boat. [Laughs.]

What was the setup when you were actually working on these songs?

The whole album is composed on an MPC2000XL, a Triton Renaissance and a machine that is so near and dear to my heart that I have refused to divulge what that Moog-like machine is. Then it goes through a Fostex VF16 hard disk recording. I don't really EQ on the Fostex. I do all my sequencing and balancing on my MPC, but I'll add certain effects via the MPC or the Fostex recorder or my Triton or my "Moog." I use a compression on the overall mix. That's it.

It's funny to hear you say that at the time, you weren't even really listening to rap that much. Because in my mind, I think of you as the guy who brought hip-hop to Chicago clubs and Chicago parties. Can you tell me about how you came and went with hip-hop, versus house versus disco and all those genres that you're familiar with?

When I was a kid, I was inundated with all kinds of music. I was an MTV kid. And my family is very musically immersed and inclined, my uncle being a bassist and him being married to Chaka Khan, and then my mother and my father met dancing. Coming back to Chicago for grammar school, there was a stank brewing, it didn't have a name, but it was uptempo, and it was later to be defined as house. And I was into it, even though at the same time, I was listening to [University of Chicago radio station] WHPK, [hip-hop DJs] JP Chill and Chilly Q. I was going to parties, I was going to [legendary all-ages club] Medusa’s, and all these things, right? Then I got started working on music with my friends. I was making dance music while simultaneously making rap music. Only from the outside was there separation! From the so-called dance music scene, oh, I was ghetto, and on the other side, the people that was in hip-hop or rap was calling me gay or whatever.

So in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s, there was a shift in the culture of Chicago. That shift was people wanted more than what was being played at the clubs. There was a group of us that just wanted to hear Soul II Soul, De La, Tribe, Jungle Brothers, we wanted to hear a quality rap song. We were met with a not great response. If I'm not invited to the party, I'll throw my own, and that's what we [hip-hop crew Dem Dare] did. That's not to say there weren't other DJs doing it. But the way that we presented it by having attractive young ladies there, from all of these magnet schools from Chicago, and having people from all sides of town, that was unprecedented.

I was embarking on a journey of being an artist, but it didn't work out because of the miscommunication, or lack thereof, with my colleagues who I was creating music with. So it caused me to fall into the role of being DJ guy. And so I rode that through the evolution, if not devolution, of rap music. When I got to the late ‘90s, I realized like, Yo, man, I felt like a drug dealer, and I'm not a drug dealer, and I don't want to play drug dealer music. That's how I got to not listen to rap music. I was more into, let me find what is me as opposed to what is not.

I did want to ask about the sci-fi motif that's running through the album. There's the HAL 9000 voice, and other samples and voice-overs that you included. What's the sci-fi theme mean to you?

The sci-fi is just in my genetic makeup. "The Twilight Zone" was my favorite show. Thus The Twilite Tone. The sound bytes are actually speaking to the bottom line of what I wanted to communicate. The sci-fi thing, I thought, would be a creative way to say what I want to say without being so direct and literal. And it sounded cool. And it's funny, you know, I use a lot of [Canadian synthesizer pioneer] Bruce Haack. And I found myself being a conduit for Bruce Haack. I felt like, damn, me and Bruce Haack are saying the same things. It just serendipitously came together.

Is there any advice that you can give to a musician or other creative person?

Be yourself. I just gave some advice to my god-nephew, because he wants to get into music, and he lives in Atlanta. He's like, "Man, but my stuff doesn't sound like this." I said, "Good. And it's not supposed to." And another thing I was saying is, would you do music for free? Then you're on the right path. You're doing this to hustle, and because you think it's easy to make money by making the hi-hat sound like semi-automatic weapons? I say stay out of it. We got enough of that.

Was there anything that you were listening to for inspiration while working on this album?

I don't listen to producers for inspiration. I daresay this may sound arrogant: a lot of people that people worship and look up to, they're my peers, or I've come before. That was another reason why I did this, so that I could start showing like, this is really me, I'm not trying to be somebody else or be the next up, none of that.

This is just the beginning. I'm actually a new artist, it's funny to say that. But I'm like [professional baseball player] Satchel Paige. Or Thelonious Monk: I lost my cabaret license, I couldn't play publicly, but that didn't mean I stopped playing at all. I really relate to Thelonious. A lot of people going crazy over John Coltrane and this guy and that guy, and Thelonious is not getting recognized because he can't [legally] play. He's not performing, he's doing other things. But when he finally steps out, it's like, oh my god, who is this guy, right?

Sun Ra Arkestra's Knoel Scott On New Album 'Swirling,' Sun Ra's Legacy & Music As A Healing Force

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Sun Ra Arkestra's Knoel Scott On New Album 'Swirling,' Sun Ra's Legacy & Music As A Healing Force

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The Sun Ra Arkestra saxophonist discusses the evolution and enduring sound of Sun Ra’s music, and why younger generations are more receptive to his more far-out experiments
Jeff Terich
GRAMMYs
Oct 9, 2020 - 10:32 am

Sun Ra's music transcends genre and generation, time and space. The Alabama-born jazz legend, musical chameleon and Afrofuturist icon—who would have turned 106 in May—began performing in the swing and big band era and kept up a career for five decades, traveling the spaceways through cosmic ambient jazz, intense bursts of free jazz in the ‘60s, disco in the ‘70s and ‘80s, and various genre-agnostic experiments in the spaces in between. Sun Ra’s music was as boundless as the interstellar universe he considered himself a part of, and his sonic innovations continue to echo throughout music nearly three decades after his death.

His band, the Sun Ra Arkestra, is a significant element in keeping that music alive. They’ve continued to tour as an ensemble since the ‘90s, and on Oct. 30, will release their first new album in over two decades, Swirling. It’s as much a tribute to the legacy of Sun Ra as it is a continuation of the ideas and sounds he pioneered in his lifetime, featuring modern reinterpretations of classic Sun Ra compositions such as "Rocket No. 9" and "Angels and Demons at Play," as well as lesser-known tracks, and even the first recording of "Darkness," composed by Arkestra bandleader Marshall Allen. Though the arrival of Swirling comes during a time of fear and uncertainty, with no live music on the horizon for the foreseeable future, longtime Arkestra saxophonist Knoel Scott says that it’s even more important for them to be giving joyful, celebratory music back to the world.

"Music is a healing force," he says. "Our intention was for the music to be healing. For something to give happiness. When people live for a long time, and they’re asked what’s responsible for that, they say they laughed. So mirth and enjoyment and contentment, those things come from music."

GRAMMY.com caught up with Scott to discuss the new permutations of Sun Ra’s music on Swirling, finding hope in troubled times, and traveling in your mind through music.

So, Swirling is the first new recording from the Sun Ra Arkestra in over 20 years…

The first successful attempt. We tried once or twice, but the conditions weren’t conducive.

Right. Is it a matter of logistics—having everyone be able to contribute at the same time?

Yeah, the crucial part of the band’s ritual is rehearsal. And there are some logistical difficulties. Being in New York, professional musicians, they have to work, and that work is primary, so they don’t always have time to come out. But Swirling was recorded off of a tour, so the band was pretty hot at the time. A lot of the compositions were played off of our book that we were playing off the last tour that we did. We were playing "Darkness" a lot. "Seductive Fantasy," we were playing that a lot. All the songs were part of the regular band book. That book, which Marshall arranged, I guess we were playing it for around a year. Every nine months we change it. We keep certain standards, but to keep everyone interested and keep it fresh, we bring new songs in.

Aside from most of them being part of the Arkestra's last tour, is there something that connects all of these songs?

I guess the intent. Everybody wanted to play the music well and represent Sun Ra well, and give homage to Sonny and create a product that Sonny would be proud of. So, that unified us.

Sun Ra had such a long and prolific career, and this album pulls from various moments throughout that career. Was there an effort to try to represent as broad a selection of his music as possible?

Well, his music was so varied. He played so many different styles, from R&B to so-called Afrobeat to futuristic sounds to swing to avant garde. So yes, we tried to do a variety which reflected the pantheon that Sun Ra created. So therefore, there is a lot of variety on the album. That’s how Sun Ra was, he had so much variety. We never knew what he was going to do, but all of it was within the African-American tradition.

Are the Arkestra's compositions all, in some way, living and evolving creations?

Yes. The nature of music is you never play it the same way twice. Something is always different. Something is always added. A new nuance created every time we play a composition. It gave us a chance to focus a little more, because the gigs are a show. The focus, to a degree, is on entertainment and presentation. But in the studio, the concentration is all on putting the visual into the music, while in a live show, the visual is there as an accent. But on the recording that all has to be in the music. So we’re trying to create a visual in the listener’s mind.

Likewise, are you always continuing to evolve as musicians?

We have to. Sun Ra says the world’s moving fast, you have to adjust yourself. And Marshall says, "It’s the spirit of the day." Tomorrow you feel a little bit different than you did today. Your interpretation of the music is going to be a little different. So it becomes a living entity, because we put our spirit into it, and it changes from day to day and moment to moment.

Sun Ra's music spans many decades and generations, and this too will likely introduce his and your music to a new generation. What is it that makes his music endure?

The fact that it was from the future. That’s why his sounds are more accessible to the audience's ear now. But in the ‘50s and ’60s, it was radical. They would just be like, "What is he doing?" He was always talking about the future and the new millennium. But the future is now, and so the time for the music is now. He designed it that way, so the millennial generation is able to relate to it, because he wrote the music for them. The music for tomorrow’s world. People have changed. People’s ears have developed. The computer age has come, and electronics are a standard part of their listening, and Sun Ra pioneered these things, so just in terms of what people listen to now, this music that people call new age and Afrobeat, techno, all these things are devices Sun Ra used in his music in the ’60s and ’70s. As soon as a new sound came out, Sun Ra was on top of it. So now, people are used to these things. Going back to Star Trek, you hear the sounds that Sun Ra was playing in the ‘60s. Those sounds are now part of the standard media presentation of music.

It’s funny you mention that—I was watching some early episodes of Star Trek and a lot of the music reminded me of Sun Ra.

Yeah. [Laughs.] The theme song is a variation on a standard called "Out of Nowhere." But especially from Slugs’ [Saloon in Manhattan], that was the type of place that the hip people went, and Sun Ra was an underground figure for years. But he was also in California for years, and there’s been a cross pollination of Sun Ra’s music into Hollywood and TV, et cetera.

It’s an odd time to be releasing music right now. How do you feel about putting something out right now, especially something based so heavily on the Arkestra’s live performances, without being able to be onstage to play them?

That’s very important, because people are hungry for music. They’re not able to go out, so they’re on YouTube and Spotify, they’re listening to records. We stay at home, so music is a very important thing. I think it’s really perfect for the album to come out when people are spending more time at home and are looking for some kind of sound that will inspire them or give them hope or some kind of relief from this terrible time that we’re going through, because it’s stressful for everyone. You can’t go out, but you can put on an album and travel in your mind.

Is there a message or a feeling that you would hope listeners take away from hearing Swirling?

That there’s hope. No matter how bleak or troublesome or turbulent the times are, as long as people have love in their hearts, if they want a better world, there can be a better world. And the unification of the musicians from different areas of the United states and as far as Brazil, we all have different perspectives but come together of one accord, so the Arkestra’s contribution is a testimony that we can come of one accord. We may not always agree, but we can come together for a positive outlook and a positive goal. And that comes down to intent, for people with love in their hearts and joy in their spirits and enlightenment in their minds. Our job is to heal the planet.

Diamond Platnumz Talks Growing Up In Tanzania & Breaking Into American Popular Music

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