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Lil Dicky, aka Dave Burd, as Dave

Lil Dicky, aka Dave Burd, as Dave

Courtesy Photo: Pamela Littky/FX

News
Rapper Lil Dicky Talks New TV Show 'Dave' rapper-lil-dicky-talks-new-tv-show-dave-and-his-creative-ambitions-and-screen

Rapper Lil Dicky Talks New TV Show 'Dave' And His Creative Ambitions On- And Off-Screen

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On his new FXX TV show, the viral rapper is giving fans an inside look into Dave Burd, the man behind Lil Dicky, and his pursuit of his hip-hop dreams
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Mar 26, 2020 - 3:31 pm

The first thing you'll notice about Lil Dicky is his ridiculous name, which, it turns out, is more than an elementary dick joke. The next thing you'll notice about Lil Dicky are his ridiculous lyrics. On his 2015 single, "$ave Dat Money," featuring Fetty Wap and Rich Homie Quan, he raps about his frugal approach to life: "I ain't parkin' that unless the meter green, homie/Hair cut several months in-between, homie/Hit the motherf**kin' lights when I leave, homie." 

It's almost easy to overlook Lil Dicky's prowess as a hilarious lyricist and technically skilled rapper. Still, underneath all the incisive punchlines about petty crimes and broken relationships, the rapper flips the script on mainstream rap culture, tackling issues like hypermasculinity ("Classic Male Pregame") and white privilege ("White Dude") in a manner offering both comical relief and sharp social commentary. 

"It's hard for people to take being funny seriously, even though I don't think it's mutually exclusive," Lil Dicky tells the Recording Academy. "I think I can be funny and still very musically credible." 

After breaking out in 2013 with his viral music video "Ex-Boyfriend," Lil Dicky has since become a bona fide rap star. His 2015 debut album, Professional Rapper, topped the Top Rap Albums and the Comedy Albums charts in the U.S. and featured rap royalty like Snoop Dogg and T-Pain. 

Now, Lil Dicky is giving fans an inside look (kinda) into his life on his new FXX TV show, "Dave." Debuted this month, "Dave" tells a fictionalized version of Dave Burd, the man behind Lil Dicky, and his pursuit of his hip-hop dreams. On the show, Lil Dicky, in his neurotic mind, is convinced he's destined to be one of the best rappers of all time, and now he's proving it to the world—one dick joke at a time. 

As the show's co-creator, executive producer and lead actor, Burd steps into new artistic roles beyond the mic for the first time ever, which present him with a different set of creative challenges. 

"I guess the main challenge is one of ignorance in the sense that… there's no test in our history I can lean on," Burd says. "I'm no longer nervous about doing concerts because I can, in my head, think of all the concerts I've done and know that it's going to go well because I've done this in the past… [With the] TV show, it's my first time doing it… But I think I was able to overcome that by just going with my gut more."

Much like his sardonic songs and witty lyrics, "Dave" also deals with social issues through a sarcastic yet keen perspective some may initially miss. In one episode, Lil Dicky explains his absurd moniker to his friend's bewildered mom: "It's actually a super-intellectual commentary on hypermasculinity." It's a story he's told more than once.

"It's easy to look at a rapper named Lil Dicky—who acts the way I do, the content's the way it is, and his rap name is a small penis joke—and not inherently feel like taking him seriously as a rapper," Burd explains. "But I really think I should be taken very seriously as a rapper. I don't even feel remotely satisfied in terms of accomplishing my rap dream. I can't wait to be taken even more seriously."

The Recording Academy caught up with Lil Dicky to discuss his life as a newfound Hollywood triple threat, his creative challenges behind "Dave" and his future ambitions on- and off-screen.

"Dave" sees you taking on the role of actor, writer and producer, on top of your main gig as a rapper. Which do you consider yourself first: actor, comedian, rapper? Is there a difference? 

There's definitely a difference between being a rapper and an actor. But I guess I consider myself to be Dave Burd, who is an actor and a rapper. I consider myself the person that I am first and foremost, and then I guess the other things are various occupations. But I guess I have more occupations now than I did when I was just a rapper, if that makes sense. And I don't think I can prioritize either of them right now, but I think rapper has more of a shelf life than actor.

How so?

I just think it will be hard for me to be a relevant rapper when I'm 50. But as an actor I might be like... Will Ferrell is still killing it. Larry David, look at him—he's an older guy. I just think the second half of my life I think will be primarily acting, but that almost makes me want to prioritize rap even more than I ever have, because I know that I only have so many years of being able to be relevant in that space.

"Dave" sees you wearing many hats and expanding your creative roles beyond music. What sorts of creative challenges did you face when you started this project? How did you try to overcome them?

I guess the main challenge is one of ignorance in the sense that… there's no test in our history I can lean on… I'm no longer nervous about doing concerts because I can, in my head, think of all the concerts I've done and know that it's going to go well because I've done this in the past. When I make a music video, I'm like, "Oh, I've done this. I know it's going to end up being good, because I've done it so many times." [With the] TV show, it's my first time doing it.

As much as I believe in myself, I don't have any context. Doing the whole thing with an ignorance of, "Am I even doing the right thing?", was a challenging perspective. But I think I was able to overcome that by just going with my gut more. There's a reason I haven't put out an album in five years, because I can just dwell on an issue and just nitpick and try to correct it over and over again.

And with the TV show, you got to make a decision and move on. It's like I'm almost forced to make decisions in ways that I'm not in music. And going into it, that was a fear because I'm like, "Oh, I like taking my time and being able to really think things through." And with this, sometimes you just got to make a decision, go with your gut and react. And that was daunting initially. But I think by the end, it was almost liberating, because it's like I do have good instincts and I think trusting my instincts is a good thing to do. And I think it's a relief to not be able to dwell on certain things for so long, because then a guy like me can just spin in circles.

"Dave" is a fictionalized version of your life and career. How much of the scenes and scenarios that happen in the show, if anything at all, really happened in your life?

There's lots of truth in it. I couldn't give you a percentage. But I definitely pull from a lot of real-life experiences. And a lot of things you've seen in the show actually did happen. Even some of the things that feel really ridiculous and impossible, some of those things happened in real life. So, it's just kind of a combination.

Your character in the show, Dave, has a hard time convincing people to take his music and art seriously. Did you ever face that yourself as Lil Dicky?

Yeah, for sure, I think even still now, sometimes it's like, "Oh, is he even a real rapper? Or he kind of just like a [musical comedian] 'Weird Al' [Yankovic]?" It's not a big, enormous plight that I have, but there have been times where I'm onstage waiting to do a sound check and I'm sitting there and the sound guy is like, "So when is the rapper going to get here?" And I'm just like, "I'm here. Literally, I'm waiting." I think a lot of times it surprises people. It's hard for people to take being funny seriously, even though I don't think it's mutually exclusive. I think I can be funny and still very musically credible.

It's easy to look at a rapper named Lil Dicky—who acts the way I do, the content's the way it is, and his rap name is a small penis joke—and not inherently feel like taking him seriously as a rapper. But I really think I should be taken very seriously as a rapper. I don't even feel remotely satisfied in terms of accomplishing my rap dream. I can't wait to be taken even more seriously.

Who are some of your inspirations as a rapper and as an actor?

As a rapper, the first two names that are coming to my head are Kanye [West] and Drake. And as an actor, I think about Larry David, I think about guys like Seth Rogen. I don't really think about [Leonardo DiCaprio], even though I know he's the best actor of my generation. I don't think about him as an inspiration to me. I think about comedians when I think about actors.

That being said, I want to be a great actor. I want people, when they watch my show, to be like, "Oh, he's a really good actor, too." I take pride in the acting, but I think inspirationally, I was always inspired by comedians.

Will Smith is the ultimate because I think he entered as a funny rapper and then transitioned to an iconic TV show and then became, honestly, one of the best and most revered movie stars of his time. He's a great model.

Read: LISTEN: Childish Gambino Drops New Album ‘3.15.20’

The show depicts your character Dave struggling with splitting the Lil Dicky persona and Dave, the actual person. In a previous interview, you've also mentioned that you're "sick of being called Lil Dicky" when you meet someone. That seems to be a big theme on the show and in your real life.

Yeah, I think I face it every day. Especially before the show, I put so much into my music career to the point where I can become isolated and not do X, Y, and Z. I had a girlfriend, but… Lil Dicky became more of my priority to my own relationship. I guess I'm just a hyper-ambitious person. When people meet me on the street, people say, "Man, you're really Lil Dicky? Rap for me." It's like, "Yes, I am a rapper, but I'm also a human being just going about my life." I prefer people [taking] that into account than think that I'm just the guy they see in a music video popping a bottle of champagne or whatever I'm doing.

I wouldn't say in real life it's constantly a battle of Lil Dicky versus Dave. For me, it's always a battle of being a prisoner of my own ambition, because I feel like it requires every ounce of my energy to achieve what I feel capable of achieving. But I know that there's more in life than just achieving X, Y, and Z creatively.

I feel like if life is a circle and satisfaction's a circle, half of that circle is creative endeavors, and a half probably divided for me in two halves between music and comedy. And then there's still a whole other half of life that I think is equally as important to me, which is falling in love and having a family and all your relationships and friendships. I just don't want to neglect that other half forever.

I'm sure a lot of that is going to change now with this new level of fame via "Dave."

I don't know. I've been stuck inside ever since the show's come out, so I haven't really been able to feel that. But already, for whatever reason, I get stopped and noticed more in public than I really probably should. I get stopped at such a ridiculously high rate, even before the show, that I'm kind of used to being stopped. There was like one week of traveling I did while the show was out, and I was surprised by how many people in just one week had come up to me. It wasn't like, "Hey, man. Love the music." It was like, "Hey, man. Love the show."

I think what the show does, is it contextualizes Lil Dicky, and I think people love Lil Dicky because they relate to him. I think that's why people come up to me more, because if they saw Diddy in an airport, they'd probably be scared to go talk to him because he's so larger-than-life and I'm so not. I think the show just amplifies that relatability, because instead of me rapping all those things, it's just me being myself on camera. I've always, in my head, thought that I'm creating a life that will be as impacted by fame as possible, unfortunately. But time will tell.

"Dave" is now part of a long history of cultural crossovers between the hip-hop and comedy worlds. Wu-Tang Clan founder RZA has acted and appeared in several comedies. Comedians Aziz Ansari and Dave Chappelle are both huge hip-hop fans. Why do you think there's so much crossover between hip-hop and comedy?

I don't know that answer. They're both entertaining, and I think they both give people an escape when they experience them. I think people love to laugh and be distracted from their day and be happy and laughing. I know when I was a kid, I wanted nothing more than to listen to Kanye talk about himself and his life and that escape and just living through another artist vicariously. I think like all art, people can relate to it and escape their own reality and enjoy something different. I don't really have a good answer for that, but it is interesting. I think both are just very cool.

I think one of the things that seems attractive for both industries, perhaps, is the concept of storytelling within each of those individual worlds, whereas a comedian, you can build a long, detailed narrative in your standup sets in the same way you can build worlds in a hip-hop album. In the same vein, hip-hop artists and comedians share their personal lives and vulnerabilities quite openly in their individual art.

That's the answer. I'm going to use that.

You want to steal my answer?

Yeah, what you said.

Have you ever thought about making "Dave," the movie?

Very roughly, but I got to think about making "Dave" [the TV show] season two first. I don't know the future, in terms of what I'll want to do or not want to do. But knowing how all-encompassing and time-consuming and, like, every detail matters so much to me, I don't know how I can be like [FX TV show] "It's Always Sunny [In Philadelphia]," where I'm on for 13 years. I just feel like I won't have a life if I do that. I've never thought about it like, "Oh, this is going to be a 13-season show." I think about it a little differently. But I don't know the answer to that. I have thought about the movie. But it's like, why don't I see where I'm at after, like, four seasons and see what needs to be resolved?

Read: Chika Confronts Music 'Industry Games' With Candor & Confidence On Her Major-Label Debut

Are you enjoying this new experience, this new creative challenge?

Oh, absolutely. I've always, first and foremost, wanted to be a comedian. I believed in myself as a comedian. That kind of is what drove me to become a rapper. And as much as I love rap, and I've always loved hip-hop, it wasn't even necessarily something I saw coming to the extent that I always saw this coming. So, it's very validating just to have a different outlet. I've been working on an album for like four-and-a-half years; you get a little burned out by it. 

We finished editing [the show] last week and now it's the first week where I'm not editing. So, I can now work on my album again, and now I'm excited to get back into music. Where before the show, nine months ago, I was ready for a break from the music. I think having both of these things is a very powerful thing for me, because like anything, you do it too much, you get a little bit burned out and it's not good to feel sick of doing something when you're trying to be funny and creative.

Do you approach your music and the show in completely different creative mindsets? Or is there any artistic overlap?

I would say the common theme is, I call it "no stone unturned." I'm very much a no-stone-unturned kind of guy. Even if there's a moment in a scene where the take is perfect, I'll still look at every other take, just to make sure there's not one that's maybe slightly better. I really do exhaust every option, so that way I have the internal peace of mind that this moment in this piece of art cannot be better.

I think I do that exact same thing in music and everything. It's very nitpicky and hyper-neurotic and exhausting. But for me, it yields the ultimate peace of mind that I know that this could not have been better. Once I do that and I have that feeling, then I'm OK with the results. But it's like, just make sure that you don't leave anything on the table.

Do you foresee yourself continuing to work in film and TV as an actor as well as behind the scenes as a writer and producer?

I think I'm just getting started, but yes. Right now, I think I have so much on my plate with just my music career and my TV show. But I think when it's all said and done, yes, I'll try to get my hand as a producer or a writer, a production house—all those types of things. I think I will have a very active presence in the comedy and film space for the rest of my life.

Mortal Man: Author Marcus J. Moore Talks 5 Years Of Kendrick Lamar's 'TPAB' & His Forthcoming Book, 'The Butterfly Effect'

Rico Nasty

Rico Nasty

Photo: Jason Carman

News
Rico Nasty Talks Debut Album, 'Nightmare Vacation' rico-nasty-nightmare-vacation-interview

Welcome To Rico Nasty's 'Nightmare Vacation'

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As she gears up to release her debut album, 'Nightmare Vacation,' this fall, the Maryland-born rapper tells GRAMMY.com about the evolution of her sound, the cultural connection between her music and fashion and the new era of women-led rap music
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Sep 29, 2020 - 10:19 pm

Rico Nasty knows how to stand out. In an era filled with gray days and dark skies, she is the rainbow-bright, spiky-haired, fashion-forward loudmouth with nothing to hide and everything to gain. 

Since first breaking out in 2016 with her underground hits "iCarly" and "Hey Arnold," the Maryland-born rapper has become one of the most exciting, singular voices in today's hip-hop scene. Her unique take on the genre—melodic vibes and hard-edged flows over bright, bass-rattling trap beats, a style she's trademarked as "Sugar Trap"—has helped mutate rap music into all sorts of weird shapes and sounds. Rap music is all the better for it.

On her forthcoming debut album, Nightmare Vacation, Rico bridges her raw style with mainstream ambitions. Just take "iPhone" for a ride. Produced by fellow pop weirdo Dylan Brady, one half of experimental electronic duo 100 gecs, the song is an adrenaline rush of distorted hyperpop paired with Rico's washed-out, razor-sharp rhymes. In the middle of the track, she floats into soft R&B coos that can still cut like rusty blades. 

"I definitely feel like this is just a whole new vibe," Rico Nasty tells GRAMMY.com about the vision behind Nightmare Vacation. "It's a whole bunch of that overcoming, that, 'Wow, I didn't think I could do this.' And then actually do it and it sounds amazing. I look forward to that."

As she gears up to release Nightmare Vacation this fall, Rico Nasty checks in with GRAMMY.com to talk about the evolution of her sound on her debut album, the cultural connection between her music and fashion, and the new era of women-led rap music.

You found the name for your new album, Nightmare Vacation, while you were on a trip to Mexico last year. What's the significance behind the album's title?

I feel like life is dated by what a person thinks they should be. They find themselves in a "nightmare vacation." They find themselves surrounded by a bunch of the stuff that they thought they would love once they got it, but they realized that that wasn't what they wanted—it was what somebody else wanted. I felt like I dealt with a lot of that during [my trip] in Cabo, [Mexico]—just a whole lot of minding myself and growing up and realizing that can't nobody makes choices for me. I like what I like, I don't like what I don't like. I want in life what I want out of life.

I was listening to some of your older music, specifically your 2018 mixtape, Nasty, which is raw, it's hard and it's, well, pretty nasty. Nightmare Vacation has that same energy, but then you also have tracks like "Come Over" and "Loser," which show a little bit of a softer side with some R&B melodies. How would you say your sound has changed or evolved over the last couple of years, or since your last couple of releases?

I feel like I've been in the studio more than I ever have in my entire life. I was doing 72-hour sessions, even just literally experimenting and, obviously, drawing inspiration from the people that I love. I love Rihanna. I feel like she makes the best music, she has the best beats and melodies ever. I just tried to pull from my inspirations, but still keep it me, keep everything true to myself and ... everything that's been going on with my life.

https://twitter.com/Rico_nastyy/status/1294019407090348032

A Letter To My Fans I Love You All
Stream IPhone and Gear Up For Nightmare Vacation 💚 pic.twitter.com/HF7jDIid9P

— TACOBELLA (@Rico_nastyy) August 13, 2020

You're doing something really unique and interesting with the rollout of Nightmare Vacation. With each of your announcements, you're sharing these personal letters in a series that you're calling the Nightmare Vacation Journal. Tell me about the journal series and the decision behind all of these personal letters.

I feel like before I dropped a song, I would get real nervous and I'd have all these thoughts. I get all tumbled up and emotional ... I never deal with a lot of other things. I can't really compare it to anything. Every time I drop a song, it's a process of letting go. I feel like whatever emotions I'm feeling the night before I drop those songs, I share my feelings. Whether or not they're meaningful messages or like ... I don't really know. It's just whatever comes to my mind, I feel like that's part of it. Every day, I might look back on this sh*t and say, "Why did I say that? Why did I think that? Why did I feel like that?" But it's just important to share that stuff so [my fans] know what type vibe I'm on when I'm releasing it.

In the first letter for the album's debut single, "iPhone," which you sent out in August, you wrote that you felt anxious about the announcement of Nightmare Vacation. Now that we're getting closer to the album's release, do you still feel anxious?

Yeah, I'm always anxious. I'm always anxious or excited ... I don't know what the word is. I'm always high-strung and ready for whatever ... As a child, I would never think that I would make an album, like a real album. I've toured and I've seen the world and I actually have fans—it's a dream come true. I think anybody would get anxious for sharing that with the world.

That's interesting because when I listen to your music, I don't hear a nervous or an anxious person. Your album, for example, has a track called "Own It," which is basically a self-empowerment anthem. Do you consider yourself confident?

Some days I'm confident. Some days I'm not. I feel like I'm confident when I make music.

When I hear you rapping, I feel like you very much are confident and you love yourself for who you are. How did you go about gaining that confidence? How did you learn to love yourself?

It's one of those things that I feel like, when you're born ... You have to just have an early sense of self-worth. When you're a kid, it's just certain choices that you make ... This is something small, but in high school, I was on this health kick, and I was going to the gym and I was in sports. I was serious about it. I was serious about taking care of myself. The older I've gotten, I became more aware of what it took to take care of myself. I feel like, when you strive for self-love and not perfection or all that other sh*t that you strive for, you just strive to be the best you, whatever you like. You gotta finesse it. It just makes you feel better about everything.

But like I said, you don't feel that way every day. I feel like anybody who's feeling great every day is a lunatic. You're a crazy person. There's no way everybody feels good every single day. There's no way, not one person. Everybody feel like sh*t. Some days I feel ugly. Some days I feel like the baddest person in the room. Some days I feel misunderstood. Some days I feel like everybody can relate to me ... It's up and down.

Read: Rico Nasty On Being Fearless & The Importance Of Highlighting Black Women's Emotions

Going back to your letters and journal, it all feels very intimate. They reveal a little vulnerability, and they're written directly to your fans. What's your relationship like with your fans, the so-called Nasty Mob?

I always tell them that our relationship is one-of-a-kind because they've never given me a hard time. I've never had a situation with my fans where I'm out and they're just giving me a hard time. Everybody who I come in contact with is just respectful and polite, dressed cool as hell, and their hair is fire and their makeup is fire. They're just a really cool individual. I always say that I would probably be friends with my fans if I was just a regular person, like if I just seen them out, I'd be like, "OK. You can hang with me. Let's get lit." It's just one big gang, one big mob.

Whenever I'm in the city, I personally invite certain fans that have come out to other shows. I just feel like I watched them growing. We all met when they was like 17 and I'm, like 19. My first time away from home, they first time ever going to a show. Just that human interaction is so important, especially now with coronavirus. I've cried a couple of times about missing them, like literally missing them, their presence, the way how I can get on stage and say, "Guys, I feel terrible today. Today has been the worst day ever." And they just scream at me and throw flowers at me, throw gifts at me, get on each other's shoulders, they mosh for me. It's one-of-a-kind, the love that I have for them. They're the best fans ever, I don't care what anybody says.

Rico Nasty

Rico Nasty | Photo: Jason Carman

It sounds like your fans are really excited about Nightmare Vacation. What do you think they're going to think about the album?

I just imagine a brain that's gray, and I just imagine a colorful brain after they see the album. [They're going] to be stimulated and well-fed and well-behaved. They probably won't be as mad at me as they are now. I feel like they're going to have a lot of fun with this album ... Fun by themselves, fun going for a walk, fun in the shower, fun driving alone. You don't even need a person to listen to this album with. You don't need nobody to party with. It's the party. This is the party. Put this b*tch on and let go. This the party in your room. You don't need nobody.

Read: Princess Nokia Is Making Space For People Who "Don't Have A Voice Yet" In Music

Speaking of having fun, did you have fun making Nightmare Vacation?

Yeah, I had fun making every single song on his album. But you know what I didn't have fun doing? I didn't have fun learning a whole lot of stuff. Obviously, every artist, you learn so much. You learn the ins and outs, you learn the ups and downs, you learn the pauses, the, "This might not be cleared. This might get cleared." This video and these dates and features and people available. You learn so much sh*t. So it definitely takes away [from] the glory of, "Wow this is great, great studio session!"

But that is what it is. It's Nightmare Vacation, man, f**k that. Everything's good, everything's bad—it's life. But you love life, right? You don't want to die. You want to see tomorrow. You might f***ing hit the lottery tomorrow. If you died, you wouldn't see that. You wouldn't see anything.

On an artistic level, does Nightmare Vacation feel different from what you've done before?

I definitely feel like this is just a whole new vibe. I never would have thought I could make a song like "Own It." "Own It" is so smooth, it's just different. The video is so couture and so camp, and it's different. It's a whole bunch of that overcoming, that, "Wow, I didn't think I could do this." And then actually do it and it sounds amazing. I look forward to that.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFJAkkLlfUa

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A post shared by TACOBELLA (@riconasty)

As you said, your "Own It" video shows some very futuristic fashion. You've got some strong looks on there. You have your hands in fashion: You have your own unique, very colorful look and style. You're going to be appearing and walking in Rihanna's Savage X Fenty show this week. What's the connection between fashion and your music?

I feel like I would not be who I was if the music didn't match the way I dress. [Giggles.] I feel like the music has to match your style ... I don't know, it doesn't have to. Look at J. Cole. J. Cole doesn't really go deep into that fashion sh*t. But his music is crazy, and it's a great reflection of him. But for me, my fashion is out there with big-ass boots, crazy eyeliner, leather, spikes. You listen to my music and that's what will probably be in the room if you were laying in the bed with me. [Laughts.].

I think [fashion is] a mirror almost, and I've used it like that. I've used it like a real-life mirror of how I'm feeling. Because sometimes I dress super hardcore, and some days I dress in dresses and I just look like a girly-girl, a whole lot of pink. Fashion is just one of those things that, honestly, the first thing that made feel accepted in any industry ever. 'Cause music was a little hesitant. I remember music was like, "OK, we like her. It's cool." But fashion was really like, "Oh my God, hop out." I made a lot of friends in fashion and a lot of people that keep me inspired.

Read: Leikeli47 On Honest Storytelling, Performing With A Mask, 'Acrylic' & More | Up Close & Personal

You mentioned spikes and leather, which makes me think about punk rock fashion. You've been called a rock star, a punk rock princess, a pop-punk princess. There are mosh pits at your shows. What's your relationship with rock and punk?

I am a fan of rock and punk music, but I feel like I'm really a fan of rap music. I'm a rapper, and I've used those other references, like rock, to blend with rap music. I feel like people kinda ignore that a little bit, but I love rap music. I always tell my manager and my friends, whenever they say stuff like that—it's been so many different titles for me that they're going to have to come up with my own word at this point ... There's punk, there's rock, there's hardcore.

I don't think there's anything ... It's just getting inspired from things that I've heard growing up. I might make a song that sound like that ... It's the voice and the cadence, I get, could be the rock stuff. But also, there's a lot of rockers that have had that crazy-ass voice. Obviously, the beats draw them in and that's what sticks in their head, like, "OK, she raps on this hard." There's a lot of music that people have fallen in love with that don't have anything to do with rock.

Do you believe in genres? Do you see them as an inspiration or a barrier?

I feel like genres definitely are needed ... But I don't know. This new generation, of course, we are just so obsessed with everything being our own and we being the creators of everything. I call my music "Sugar Trap." That's what I've always called it.

What is Sugar Trap?

You have the soft, beautiful, flowy vibes, melodic, but then you also have trap music like Chicago drill music, Atlanta trap music, Memphis trap music, little bit of California trap music. I mix everything. If the sound catches my ear, I mix it. So when we talk about rock, I just remember, when I made that song, I was listening to a lot of rock. I felt very alone and very alienated, so I made music to reflect that. That's why we get songs like "Rage."

Talking about rock, you've mentioned Joan Jett as a major inspiration to your music and your career. In many ways, you are now on that opposite end where you're inspiring a younger generation of rappers, artists and fans. Do you feel the weight of responsibility as a role model to your fans?

Nah, because I feel more of a weight or responsibility to be a role model towards my son. Just as long as I'm a good person to him, that's what really matters to me. Fans going to like what they like. I know some songs they don't like from me; they're allowed to feel that way. I just feel like, where I think my son is different, because they they always grow with me.

As far as the younger generation looking up to me, too, however they're inspired by me, I just want them to understand that they're their own person and they're going to live their own life. And though there might be a lot of situations that resemble one another, there's a lot of choices they're going to have to make that I ain't had to make, and things they going have to do that I ain't have to do. And they just going to have to respect the hustle. It's hard to get where I am. It's gonna be hard to get wherever they get. That's still weird having people look up to me because I take my pants off one leg at a time, and I'm just a regular person.

Your dad, who was a rapper, introduced you to hip-hop. Are you doing the same for your son? Are you introducing him to your music or rap or any other genres?

He be in the studio with me. He go places with me. He knows, he watch my music videos. He listens to his own stuff, though. It's very important that he's his own person, too, 'cause he's one-of-a-kind just by watching him make his own decisions. He listens to Aminé and Post Malone. His music choice is kinda cute. Justin Timberlake, too; he likes Justin Timberlake a lot.

But you know, he don't really listen to my stuff. He's around, he sees it. He was there for some video shoots. He was there for the "Countin Up" video shoot in New York. He's there for a lot of stuff; he's just behind the scenes, though. I definitely try to incorporate him in my life, but I ain't going to force it. He doesn't have to like music.

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We are having a major cultural moment in hip-hop: Women are dominating rap, a genre that's always been very male-driven. You have Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion on top. Does it feel like we're in a new era where women are the new leaders in rap?

Yeah. It's kinda weird watching it become what it is become. This is what the next 10 years is going to look like. I feel like people like women's music more. [Laughs.] I don't know how to say that. A woman's voice, it is what it is. Whether it's rap or whatever it is, the confidence that women give other women, it's unmatched ... I feel like the world needs women's music to heal as well. The early 2000s had so much women's music and girls were so powerful, and the world just felt better. I'm praying for that.

There's a lot of momentum happening for women rappers right now. Where would you like it to go and what needs to happen to take it there?

Well, it's already in a great direction. Obviously, I would wish that people would stop being so judgemental. But it's one of those things where, just like everything else, if you just put it in their face enough, they'll get the point. They'll get it. They'll care. Just like there's a lot of male rappers who talk about certain things, and people just get their point. That's their life. That's what they do. Just give it, like I said, five years and it'll be what it is ... This is the new era of music: women rapping.

In order to make it happen, we just need ... I don't even know what to say. Women already supporting each other. We already cool. We already text each other when great sh*t happens for one another and we're like, "Oh my God, that's crazy!" We are all watching this unfold.

Even At The 'Top' Of The Rap Game, YoungBoy Never Broke Again Still Isn't Satisfied

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Lin-Manuel Miranda (L) and host/creator Hrishikesh Hirway (R) in "Song Exploder"

Lin-Manuel Miranda (L) and host/creator Hrishikesh Hirway (R) in "Song Exploder"

Photo: Eric Veras/Netflix

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How "Song Exploder" Unlocks The Intimacy Of Music song-exploder-netflix-hrishikesh-hirway-interview

Beat By Beat: How "Song Exploder" Unlocks The Intimacy Of Music And Creativity

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Based on the popular podcast, the newly launched Netflix series dissects classics and current hits one layer at a time, while host and creator Hrishikesh Hirway finds the human connection behind it all
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Oct 20, 2020 - 4:54 pm

Most people know "Song Exploder" as the popular podcast giving die-hard music fans a deep, inside look into the sonic mechanics behind their favorite tracks. A whole new class of music-heads now knows "Song Exploder" as the new Netflix series bringing the creativity behind music to the digital screen.

Originally launched as a podcast in 2014, "Song Exploder" dissects classic and current fan-favorite songs, with guest artists breaking down each individual track and element in detail to paint an intimate audio portrait of their art. The podcast, which has accumulated more than 60 million streams and downloads over the years and has hosted guests like U2, Selena Gomez, Björk, Fleetwood Mac, Solange and many others, now breathes new life as a Netflix docuseries. 

Introduced on the streaming platform at the beginning of October, "Song Exploder" adds an even deeper layer of storytelling and personal insight to the songs being deconstructed beat by beat. The show's inaugural four-episode run features Alicia Keys ("3 Hour Drive"), Lin-Manuel Miranda ("Wait For It" from "Hamilton"), R.E.M. ("Losing My Religion") and Ty Dolla $ign ("LA"). (Last week [Oct. 15], Netflix unveiled its next slate of guests for the show's second season, set to debut Dec. 15: Dua Lipa, The Killers, Nine Inch Nails and Natalia Lafourcade.

Whether in visual or podcast format, the core of "Song Exploder" remains the same: "an intimate portrait of an artist telling the story of how their artistic mind worked through creating one of their songs," host and creator Hrishikesh Hirway tells GRAMMY.com.

GRAMMY.com chatted with Hrishikesh Hirway about the human connection behind his new "Song Exploder" Netflix series and how he hopes the show will inspire others to create their own art.

You have an endless supply of songs from which to choose for any given "Song Exploder" episode, podcast and show. What needs to stand out in a song in order for you to develop it for "Song Exploder"?

The first step in the process is really identifying the artists before even getting to the song, because, frankly, I don't know necessarily which songs might have the best stories. The most famous songs don't necessarily have the most interesting stories, and the people who know that better than anyone are the people who made the songs.

But what I can try and determine is which artists seem really interesting and thoughtful, good storytellers, and who are also beloved by a lot of people. That's kind of where I start. And once I can get an artist onboard to talk about a song in this way, then I start the process of trying to narrow down which song it's going to be with them.

I feel like I don't know what the story [of the song] is all the time. There are a lot of songs that haven't necessarily been delved into, and frankly, I'm always interested in something like that ... where the backstory [of a song] hasn't been canonized and "Song Exploder" can be a place to tell it for the first time. So I really am relying on input from the artists ... The question that I ask them, frankly, is: Which of your songs do you feel the most emotional attachment to?

Ultimately, the most interesting stories, I think, when it comes to making songs or really making any kind of art, are about people and their feelings and the things that inspire them to make something at all. Even though the show is about music, it's also a portrait of each of these artists. In order to tell you something insightful, especially for it to be something that could be interesting to people who aren't people who make music themselves and also aren't necessarily even familiar with the artist or the song, it has to be something that connects to something in the human experience that feels significant.

I always try to make "Song Exploder" a show that reflected a broad range of genres and artists and backgrounds. So there's kind of almost a guarantee that you couldn't just get people hooked on the show based on who the artists were and what the songs were; I want everybody to watch every episode and listen to every episode of the podcast because I think that it's a worthwhile conversation to have. I think the creative process is something that's really fascinating in and of itself. It's an example of how people react to their own experience, to actually decide to make something based on their ideas, what they lived through, what they love ... The thing that I'm actually most interested in is that kind of emotional experience: the emotional attachment to the act of creating a piece of music.

Michael Stipe of R.E.M. in "Song Exploder"

Michael Stipe of R.E.M. in "Song Exploder" | Photo: Courtesy of Netflix/Netflix

There's a moment in the R.E.M. episode where frontman Michael Stipe gets almost emotional listening to his own voice on the band's classic, "Losing My Religion," and hearing the song elements broken down and presented to him in such an intimate manner, even after so many years since the song's release. How do you go about getting artists to open up to you and dive into their art so deeply?

I think one thing that helps is that I'm not really approaching [the interview process] head-on, certainly not right away. The questions don't start off front and center in like an emotionally investigative way. I think I have to earn their trust first, and part of that is from talking about the mechanics of the process first. That's the entry point in all these conversations. One of the reasons why having the [song's] stems is important, not just in terms of letting the listeners know what's going on in the song, but in terms of being able to facilitate that conversation with the artist.

Of all of the questions, the hardest one to answer is probably, "Why?" "Why did you decide to make the song this way? Why did you write this lyric? Why did you choose this chord progression?" That's the hardest [question], but it's also the one that I'm most interested in. But it's a little easier to start off with, first of all, "What?" "What are we listening to?" And then to ask them, "OK, how did you make it? And when did you make it?" All those basic factual questions are a way to just let them and me submerge ourselves into the memories of making that song.

Once they're there and able to relive some of the experience of it by hearing the actual evidence of the stuff that they did on that day—hearing their voice, hearing the instrument, hearing the actual track that they recorded around that time—it's a lot easier to ask them to then dig a few layers deeper and ask what was going on in their lives and how that might've fed into some of those creative decisions.

Read: Rhyme & Punishment: How NPR's "Louder Than A Riot" Podcast Traces The Interconnected Rise Of Hip-Hop And Mass Incarceration

You're now juggling the show and the podcast. How do you decide what songs go on the podcast format and what goes in video format?

Well, the podcast is a lot of work for a podcast, but that means that I'm still able to turn around an episode in a few weeks, whereas the TV show takes a much longer time to put together. There are just so many more components to it, and it's so much more work.

Part of the pitch for doing the television show is that I was trying to ask these artists to take a leap of faith, [like,] "This is something that's going to take a while to make, so you can't tie it to your promotional calendar, necessarily. I can't guarantee that it'll come out on such and such date to coincide with your single release or something like that." It was really more like, "Would you like to participate in this thing where there'll be this really meticulously crafted mini-documentary about this work that you did, and it's sort of evergreen."

That's a different pitch than with the podcast. Although with the podcast, I say all those things, too. I say it's evergreen and it's always better when it's not necessarily tied to your release schedule and more like when people have had a chance to live with the song a little bit. But one of the advantages of the podcast is it can be a little more nimble because it's a little easier to put together.

So this is a long way of saying that a lot of times that question is answered by the artists themselves or their publicists or managers, who are looking for a very specific outcome or timing, or they have something in mind, and that could be a matter of scale. It really depends on the circumstances of the artist and what works for them.

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Fans who've been following the podcast for a while will find a totally different experience when they come to the show. There are two types of storytelling when I hear "Song Exploder," the podcast, and when I watch "Song Exploder," the docuseries. The podcast is very audio-heavy: You get to really hear all of the isolated bits and pieces of the song. The show has a lot more historical and cultural context, sort of like a mini-documentary for a song, and you also hear from a lot more voices beyond just the recording artist. Beyond the visual element, what do you gain in terms of storytelling through the show?

I think one of the things that you mentioned is absolutely key to the TV show, which is that often on the podcast, it's just a single voice or maybe two voices together … But with the TV show, because the timeline was so different, there was a chance to stop and say, "OK, who do we really want? Who are all the voices that are involved in the creation of the song?" Maybe not just the artist, but also the collaborators that were essential to making the song. 

Having that kind of breadth and depth, it isn't always afforded to the shorter turnaround time and the scale of the podcast. But here, to really immerse the audience and give a really full picture of what the song was, having those other voices in there was really important. For [the] Alicia Keys episode [about the song "3 Hour Drive,"] we traveled to London to film with [the song's guest vocalist and co-writer/co-producer] Sampha and the [song's] co-writer/co-producer Jimmy Napes because we knew that they were going to only expand and flesh out the story.

I think a part of it is also a matter of craft, too. When you're working in audio, you're kind of only working in one dimension, which is time. You're just relying on one sense, hearing, and you're just basing everything on how long things take; the rhythm comes from just that one sense. But with TV, you have to also give a rhythm and complexity visually, too. You can't just transliterate the podcast into a TV format, where it's just one person talking, mixed with the isolated stems, because it wouldn't work; it would get very boring very quickly. So in order to have that kind of texture and nuance, we wanted to involve all those different people and try and give a little bit bigger of a picture than maybe what comes out in the podcast.

Do you see the podcast and the show as separate entities or related in the same family? Do you need to engage with both formats to fully appreciate or understand what "Song Exploder" is trying to do?

Oh, I don't think you have to engage with both. Of course, I would love it if people did, just because they're both things that I've put a lot of work into, and you want people to enjoy the stuff that you've worked on. This is not a great analogy, but I think it's sort of like reading a book or watching a movie that's been adapted of that book. I don't think you need to read the book to enjoy the movie, and vice versa, you don't need to have seen the movie to have full enjoyment of the book. But maybe you'll get something out of the experience of taking both in. Maybe it changes the way you feel about both.

This is, of course, a little bit different, because it's not even the same story that's being told. It's really just taking the core concept, which is an intimate portrait of an artist telling the story of how their artistic mind worked through creating one of their songs, and taking that concept and expressing it in these two different media. So it's much looser even than something like an adaptation of a book to a movie.

What artist or what song is your holy grail for the podcast or the show or both?

I don't have one holy grail—I think I probably have about a thousand. Anytime I start listening to music, I start wondering about it. That's not new since I started "Song Exploder"; it's the other way around. That's always been the way I listen to music. When I fall in love with a song, I want to hear it from the inside out. I want to hear what the individual tracks, what the individual stems sound like. I want to know what the ideas were that inspired all of these things that I'm falling in love with. "Song Exploder" was just a way of me being able to actually make that happen for myself. So anytime I'm listening to music and I hear something great, you could put it on the list.

Ty Dolla $ign in "Song Exploder"

Ty Dolla $ign in "Song Exploder" | Photo: Courtesy of Netflix/Netflix

What is your ultimate goal with "Song Exploder"?

I wish people would either watch the show or listen to the podcast and come away with a feeling that they want to make something themselves. Part of my aim with the show is to democratize the act of creation a little bit. I think it's easy to look at very successful artists or very successful songs or any kind of art in any format, where it has reached a certain level of success, and think that there's some uncrossable boundary for everyday people that keeps them from making something as great as those songs …

I think the best feeling that I always get from finishing working on an episode is something akin to that. That like, I just want to go make something, and it doesn't just have to be music. I think that anybody who is interested in making anything at all, to get something from the show, just the idea of going from nothing but an idea and following that all the way through to a finished piece of art, I hope that might be inspiring to everyone.

Glen Ballard On How His Netflix Show "The Eddy" Puts Music, Jazz And Performance First

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Hosts of NPR's "Louder Than A Riot": Rodney Carmichael (L) and Sidney Madden (R)

Hosts of NPR's "Louder Than A Riot": Rodney Carmichael (L) and Sidney Madden (R)

Photo: NPR's Christian Cody and Joshua Kissi

 
 
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Louder Than A Riot: Hip-Hop & Mass Incarceration npr-louder-riot-podcast-hip-hop-mass-incarceration-interview

Rhyme & Punishment: How NPR's "Louder Than A Riot" Podcast Traces The Interconnected Rise Of Hip-Hop And Mass Incarceration

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Co-hosts Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden break down how "Louder Than A Riot" explores the wide-spanning issue of mass incarceration through the lens of hip-hop music and culture, as told by the artists, journalists and executives who lived it
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Oct 11, 2020 - 12:51 pm

Here's a big theory: The dramatic surge in mass incarceration in the U.S. is intertwined with the explosive rise of hip-hop music and culture. 

Here's an even bigger theory, this one falling closer to the conspiracy sorts: Record labels, which allegedly have investments in the private prison system, purposely market criminal behavior via rap music to increase the prison population and, in turn, boost their profits.

The latter conspiracy theory has been circulating around hip-hop circles and the wider music industry for nearly a decade. In 2012, at the height of the hip-hop blog era, someone wrote an anonymous letter describing a "secret meeting" in which executives from the industrial prison complex and the music industry discussed the aforementioned symbiotic relationship. The letter exploded on the internet, sparking heated debates around the validity of the note itself as well as the underlying trigger warnings contained within it. 

Whether the letter is real or not and whether that "secret meeting" ever happened, the conspiracy theory revealed a lot about the fear and paranoia surrounding the many ways the U.S. criminal justice system disproportionately impacts Black Americans and people of color, NPR Music staff writer Rodney Carmichael explains in the debut episode of "Louder Than A Riot." 

"There was just a lot of online debates about whether the meeting that was described [in the letter] was real, whether the impact that it was laying out had manifested and registered," Carmichael tells GRAMMY.com in a recent interview. "Now, in terms of where I stand on it, I'd really rather leave that to the episode. We use the letter to reveal a lot of things … But I really want people to be able to check out the episode to get a better sense of where we stand on it, and not only us, but the culture [as well]."

Launched this week (Oct. 8), "Louder Than A Riot," the first narrative podcast series from NPR Music, explores the wide-spanning issue of mass incarceration through the lens of hip-hop music and culture, as told by the artists, journalists, legal experts, activists and music industry executives who've experienced the hyperincarceration phenomenon and were directly impacted by the criminal justice system. 

Each week, the limited-series podcast will dissect a different aspect of the criminal justice system—the probation and parole system in the U.S., the growing power of prosecutors and plea deals, the practice of RICO laws on street gangs—and its wider, often detrimental, effects on Black America and other communities of color. 

"Louder Than A Riot" continues a long-running conversation that the hip-hop community at large has been chronicling for decades, from the reality rap and social commentary within Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five's 1982 hood anthem "The Message" to The Source magazine's "Hip-Hop Behind Bars" 2004 cover story to Kendrick Lamar's eye-opening performance at the 2016 GRAMMYs.

"We just have to remember that hip-hop has been rapping about this stuff for 40 years," Carmichael says. "This is not a new conversation for the culture. This is not a new conversation within the genre. Hip-hop has been being dismissed by people in power for 40 years … To me, the answer to the question, 'What's louder than a riot?' It's actually hip-hop."

"Louder Than A Riot" co-host Sidney Madden, a reporter and editor for NPR Music, hopes the show will lead to real-life change.

"Our greatest impact would be to put something out that creates cultural conversations that can lead to cultural shifting, that can lead to societal shifting, that can be ... one of those things that's put into the world that wakes people up to things that they've had the luxury to be asleep on," she tells GRAMMY.com. "My biggest aspiration for creating this body of work and presenting it to listeners is that it's going to have people challenge themselves, complicate questions about their role in the whole thing, and start a lot more conversations that can lead to shifts in society."

GRAMMY.com spoke to "Louder Than A Riot" co-hosts Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden about the show's expansive look into the sociopolitical issues within hip-hop culture, rap's long-running and contentious relationship with the criminal justice system and the artists and rappers continuing the conversation today.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

"Louder Than A Riot" examines a very big idea: the interconnected rise of hip-hop and mass incarceration. That's a heavy theory that is perhaps not obvious to many everyday music listeners and hip-hop heads. Can you tell me about how you got to this theory in the first place?

Rodney Carmichael: Well, I think it's important first to recognize the fact that this is not the first time that this intersection has been explored. [The] Source magazine did a few classic annual issues back in the early 2000s ... Hip-Hop Behind Bars [in 2004] .. where they really explored what felt like was becoming a really big deal. Obviously, the criminal justice system disproportionately impacts Black America and other communities of color [like] Brown America. With hip-hop coming from those communities, it's just a reflection of that inequality. It's always been in the music. It's always been something that the culture, I think, has recognized in terms of the injustice built into the systems and the systemic inequality.

I don't necessarily think the connection is new. I think there hasn't been enough conversation about how, in some ways, there feels like there's this interrelated thing going on between the two of them at times. That was part of it ... kind of recognizing that this has always been something that's talked about. I think mass incarceration—we're not the first to say it—is really one of the biggest, most pressing civil rights issues of our time. It's gotten to a point now where it's a bipartisan issue: criminal justice reform. 

People on the right and the left, sometimes for different reasons, have coalesced around this issue and [are] realizing that a lot of the really tough-on-crime policies that were prevalent during the Drug War era and afterwards, through the '80s and '90s, got us to this point where we incarcerate more people [at] a higher percentage of our population than any other nation on the planet. It's a problem, and it's been impacting us the most, and hip-hop has been talking about it the most. So why not explore those two?

https://twitter.com/LouderThanARiot/status/1314962319940751360

After the murders of 2Pac and Biggie in the late 90s, police began turning their attention to rappers. @TheSource’s ‘Hip-Hop Behind Bars’ in 2004 brought the issue to the front page.

“Don’t think the feds weren’t calling me” - @kimosorio1, former EIC /14 pic.twitter.com/vHBa0skxbV

— Louder Than A Riot (@LouderThanARiot) October 10, 2020

Sydney Madden: It's funny because now it's considered a bipartisan issue to be against mass incarceration without trying to take any responsibility as to how we got here. So many policies that were enacted in the '80s and '90s are really showing that boom in population, and the chickens are coming home to roost. But the whole time, way before there was any sociological study or political pundit trying to advocate for these things, hip-hop was pushing back. You can see it through the lineage of the lyrics. You see it through a lot of artists who talked about it, whether it'd be in interviews or artists that went through cases themselves, whether it be 2Pac or Shyne or Beanie Sigel, Lil Wayne, Lil' Kim, Gucci [Mane]. I mean, even now like JT from the City Girls, Bobby Shmurda, Tay-K.

It's so funny because I can rattle off all these names. They seem like different cases, but none of these cases happen in a vacuum. The topic does seem a little bit sprawling when you first hear about it, but that's the thing about the podcast that we're going to take you through. We're going to take you through the timeline of how these numbers in America and for the population surpassed a million and ballooned to even 2 million [prisoners] now and 4.5 million people living on parole. And then, how at the same time, hip-hop became the most dominant, most consumed, most commercialized and profitable genre while it was still pushing back at all of these things at its core. [The podcast is] really about the parallel rise between two American phenomenons, and then how they connect with each other.

We take you through that timeline in the show, and then we break down real-world cases for you throughout history to give you a real proof of concept the whole way through. So it does seem a little bit overwhelming, but then every subsequent episode of the podcast is going to become more and more clear that the [criminology] in hip-hop is really a microcosm of the criminalization of Black America as a whole.

Let's jump off that. The podcast traces a few key moments in American history that contributed to the rise in the prison population and also coincided with the rise of hip-hop. For example, the first episode dives into the War on Drugs during the Reagan era, which, as you report, affected incarceration rates. How far back and how current does the podcast travel? What are some other key moments or developments that the podcast examines?

Madden: The podcast really does start with a lot of the roots of sociopolitical critique that hip-hop has always been about. We start with "The Message" [from Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five] in '82 and Reagan's re-imagining of the War on Drugs. Then we go through the '90s. And then, when we start to deep-dive into cases is really at the turn of the century. Every case that we explore has a specific theme, but it also gives you the specific time marker of where hip-hop is at in the marketplace and where it's shifting and growing into its own ...

And then, we take you through a lot of cases every decade. We get really contemporary with it at the end. The final episodes, which are going to be airing after this [2020 presidential] election is over, it's going to be very contemporary in [terms of] talking about the fight for reforms right now and the fight for abolition right now. We try to do a lot of time traveling with you, but not too much that you get whiplash.

So it's not going to feel like a college course.

Madden: It is not. It's not "Hip-Hop 101." It's not "Crime and Punishment in America." It's history and context and contemporary cultural takes all in one. That's the secret sauce of it all.

Carmichael: We try to cover 30-40 years in [the first] episode. It's probably our least narrative episode, but almost all the other episodes are going to be narrative. We're going to be telling stories about a specific person who has been impacted by this interconnected rise, and who's been caught in the crosshairs of the criminal justice system. It's not going to feel academic at all. These are stories. We know that hip-hop loves stories. It's a genre full of storytellers. So we're trying to connect these big, broad issues and communicate them in a way that the culture eats.

Madden: Absolutely. Rooted in culture. Rooted in reality. Pretty much all the cases that we dive into, we have artists at the center of it; we have interviews with them. We have interviews with all the connected players, from people on the industry side, the people in their management camp, their marketing people, their friends growing up. A lot of rappers' parents make appearances in this show as well as people on the law enforcement side. So you can get a full picture of not retrying an artist for a specific case, but really the larger sociopolitical umbrella that all of these things happen under.

The podcast opens with a story about an anonymously written letter that describes an imagined scene in a supposed "secret meeting" in which executives from the industrial prison complex and the music industry meet to discuss how the marketing of rap music could promote criminal behavior and in turn increase the prison population, which would ultimately boost profits for the prison system and its record label investors. There's a whole conspiracy theory about this. When was the first time you heard about this conspiracy theory? And where does each of you stand in regard to the validity of this "secret meeting"?

Carmichael: I think I heard about it pretty much at the time that this anonymously written letter first hit the internet, which was 2012 … There was just a lot of online debates about whether the meeting that was described [in the letter] was real, whether the impact that it was laying out had manifested and registered. It was a really interesting debate that I think, in a lot of ways, captured a lot of the angst that certain generations of the culture were going through at the time. Hip-hop was evolving, and everybody didn't necessarily like the way it had changed from the golden era to where we were at that point.

Now, in terms of where I stand on it, I'd really rather leave that to the episode. We use the letter to reveal a lot of things. But this is also an age that we're currently in where there's a lot of weight put into and onto conspiracy theories … Us being journalists, we wanted to make sure that we treated this conspiracy theory in the most journalistically sound way; I think we ultimately do. But I really want people to be able to check out the episode to get a better sense of where we stand on it, and not only us, but the culture [as well].

Madden: I'll definitely echo what Rodney is saying. I want listeners to hear what our take is and the culture's take is in the episode. But in terms of actually learning about the letter itself ... I didn't learn about it immediately ...I want to say I found out about it a year or two after, but it's because somebody was having a debate about it …

It was a bit mind-blowing, but also like, "Hmmm, I could see that. That's right on the money." … This is the time of Kendrick [Lamar's] Section.80 and good kid, m.A.A.d city. This is the time of [Meek Mill's] Dreams and Nightmares or Big K.R.I.T.'s Live From the Underground. There were so many things already happening in the music and the lyrics that legitimized this connection.

Rodney, at the end of the debut episode, you borrow a part of a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. quote in which you say, "If a riot 'is the language of the unheard' … then rap is the definitive soundtrack." What's the significance of the show's title, "Louder Than a Riot"?

Carmichael: We wanted to pick a name that spoke to this wake-up call that 2020 has become. But also, it really connected with [how], just historically, the fact that hip-hop has always been a voice for the voiceless. That quote just came to mind because it's interesting to see now how protests and things of this nature, which have always been politicized, but in this current age are continuing to be politicized in a way ...

I think the key is that as America seems, in a lot of ways, to have awakened to a lot of the inequality that was exposed this summer in terms of the George Floyd protests and the Breonna [Taylor] protests, we just have to remember that hip-hop has been rapping about this stuff for 40 years. This is not a new conversation for the culture. This is not a new conversation within the genre. Hip-hop has been being dismissed by people in power for 40 years. True, it makes a lot of money now, and it's evolved in terms of how much it's been accepted within mainstream America. But in terms of this politicization, it's always been something that has been disregarded and dismissed by those in power. To me, the answer to the question, "What's louder than a riot?" It's actually hip-hop.

Read: Want To Support Protesters And Black Lives Matter Groups? Here's How

Speaking of which, "Louder Than a Riot" drops during a very critical time in American politics and culture. You have nationwide protests advocating for racial justice and denouncing police brutality. You have the major label complex and the wider music industry reanalyzing its exploitative history and relationship with Black music and Black creators, specifically. What is the significance of "Louder Than a Riot" dropping amidst all of this turmoil and ongoing demands for change? What sort of impact do you think the podcast can make amidst or contribute to this wider cultural conversation?

Madden: We've thought about this a lot. I think one thing that people might not know right off the bat listening [to the podcast] is that this has been something that we've been developing as music journalists ... it's been years leading up to this. But in earnest, we've been developing and reporting and researching this topic for the last two years. The fact that the drop of this show was colliding with this moment in history, it just reinforces our thesis so much more, and it gives me a renewed sense of guidance and purpose ... A lot of what America is waking up to right now and is being forced to face and grapple with right now, hip-hop's been telling y'all.

There are so many moments, whether it's a rally cry, a protest chant or policy change—you're going to hear the seeds of that in hip-hop the farther back you go. That's what we're doing with people. We're showing you where the seeds of this whole movement came from, contextualizing it in a way that is urgent but also digestible and malleable. 

I often think about who we're making this podcast for, and so much of it is people who've been in tune with it, but also people who just had the luxury to enjoy hip-hop without ever feeling challenged by it. And it's like, no—hip-hop is challenging all the things that are not great in America for Black people. Hip-hop is rebelling against that, and hip-hop is showing resilience against that …

In terms of impact, I would say everyone has a different metric of success. But I would say, our greatest impact would be to put something out that creates cultural conversations that can lead to cultural shifting, that can lead to societal shifting, that can be ... one of those things that's put into the world that wakes people up to things that they've had the luxury to be asleep on ... My biggest aspiration for creating this body of work and presenting it to listeners is that it's going to have people challenge themselves, complicate questions about their role in the whole thing, and start a lot more conversations that can lead to shifts in society.

Ultimately, what does the podcast set out to do or what are the questions the podcast aims to answer?

Carmichael: If you're a hip-hop fan or especially if you come from the community that hip-hop originated in, we already understand that mass incarceration and the criminal justice system hit us harder than any other community in this country. That's one thing to just have that general knowledge or that general understanding. But to really get into the weeds of the system and understand how it works and how it goes about disproportionately impacting us is another thing.

With each story that we're telling, we get to focus on or highlight a different aspect of the criminal justice system that an artist is being impacted by, whether it's the probation and parole system in this country, whether it's the power of prosecutors and plea deals and getting into the nitty-gritty of why some 90-plus percent of criminal cases end in plea deals and don't go to trial and how that impacts the turnout of these cases, the sentencing, et cetera, et cetera … 

Each spot along the way, it's just a really revealing, eye-opening thing to really be able to allow people to have a better understanding of how the criminal justice system works, and usually not in our favor.

Who are some rappers and artists continuing this conversation and analyzing these issues in their music?

Madden: For me, I've been a Kendrick fan since day one ... He was like a prophet in some ways. And it's so great because he's getting inspired while he's alive because he's one of the best [artists] we got. Killer Mike is another one who's always been on time with it, whether he was speaking in an interview or dropping so much knowledge in a single verse that it kind of makes your head spin. 

From the younger generation, I think a lot of people don't give Vince Staples enough credit because maybe he's a bit snarky, but he gives you so much focus riddled with commentary, and he breaks it down for you in a way that never adds that, "I'm going to explain what I already said," type of thing. Noname out of Chicago. She's 'bout it, 'bout it a hundred percent in her lyrics and also in her intent and in her activation. Her starting the Noname Book Club as a force for learning … I think those type of actions and those types of motives are what's going to push us forward and propel this conversation way beyond the series' 10 episodes. Some of the people I named just now for you are actually featured in the series.

Read: Fight The Power: 11 Powerful Protest Songs Advocating For Racial Justice

Carmichael: I just want to say: All rap is political to me. It's interesting. You hear a lot of conversation today about the fact that hip-hop is not as political as it used to be. "Where are the Public Enemys?" and whatnot. But I'm from Atlanta, and trap, which really originated here, is one of the most political art forms that I think has emerged out of hip-hop and out of Black America. Hip-hop, I think, nowadays and rap in general and trap, to be more specific—its political point of view is more about giving you a version of reality that we as a country often are not willing to look at or not willing to deal with. It's very much a political point of view. 

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When we think of a lot of the marginalization that is happening in this country—[for example], Atlanta, for many years running, has been the income inequality capital; the gap between the haves and the have-nots is wider here than anywhere else. That's reflected in music that is giving a voice that wouldn't otherwise have a voice. The irony is that Atlanta is also considered the Black Mecca, and it's considered to be a place where Black folks, especially, have more and better opportunity to succeed and achieve than anywhere else in the country.

And the truth is that both of those things are true. A lot of Black folk do not fit into that narrative here. A lot of Black folk have been historically overlooked here if they aren't in the middle class. What could be more political than them being able to have a platform to express their woes, their frustrations, their hopes, their dreams, and all of that? I think just because it doesn't meet the moral code that America professes to go by, it doesn't mean anything, especially if they've been left out of the moral concerns of America.

Play That Again: Colorado Inmates Pour Heart, Hope & Faith Into 'Territorial' LP

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YoungBoy Never Broke Again

YoungBoy Never Broke Again

Photo: Tyler Shields

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YoungBoy Never Broke Again Talks New Album 'Top' youngboy-never-broke-again-interview-top

Even At The 'Top' Of The Rap Game, YoungBoy Never Broke Again Still Isn't Satisfied

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After topping the U.S. charts three times in less than a year, the fast-rising Louisiana rapper tells GRAMMY.com about the breakout success of his new album, 'Top,' the inspiration he finds in his young kids and his close relationship with his fans
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Sep 28, 2020 - 3:51 pm

When it comes to interviews, YoungBoy Never Broke Again isn't much of a talker—unless he's chatting about his kids. 

Anyone who's been following the fast-rising rapper knows he shares a special bond with his five young children—he has one little girl on the way, he confirms to GRAMMY.com—who've made regular appearances in his music and videos. 

This past Father's Day (June 21), he released the video for "death enclaimed" in which he's seen spending time with his kids—dancing in the kitchen, combing their hair, playing together on the beach. The clip is interwoven with shots of YoungBoy brandishing racks of cash, guns and luxury cars as he roams his lavish home. 

In the song, he raps about connecting with his youngest son—"He too young to understand, but we still having our one-on-ones"—as well as his ongoing paranoia about being killed in his own home. 

In August, he followed up with "Kacey Talk," the second single off his newly released album, Top. The song features vocal contributions from YoungBoy's son, and the track's eponym, Kacey, who's also featured in the single's official music video. The visual sees a high-rolling YoungBoy making big bank at a casino, signing record deals and spattering neon-bright paint on empty walls with his two young children. 

Whether he's playing businessman or family man, YoungBoy is confidently beaming throughout the whole video. 

"I couldn't get him to stop crying so I had to hold him while I recorded," YoungBoy tells GRAMMY.com about the making of "Kacey Talk." "And it's pretty cool because he actually talked like right when ... I was thinking of him to speak, he did it. So yeah, he's amazing. That's Kacey."

Read: Lil Mosey On The Staying Power of "Blueberry Faygo," Life As A Teen Rap Sensation And Getting The Co-Sign From President Barack Obama

Despite a hectic and busy schedule of recording and releasing new music year after year, he cites his family as one of his main career drivers. 

"This what makes it, that's what creates everything about it," he says about balancing life as a full-time father and artist. "That's what makes it fun. That's what gives you the drive to get up and do more. I ain't never really satisfied. So that's why I am how I am."

That same sense of perennial ambition is what's helped the emerging artist skyrocket from a teenage rap sensation from Baton Rouge, La., to a platinum-selling hip-hop kingpin who's claimed the throne time and time again. Within less than a year, he's topped the all-genre Billboard 200 chart a total of three times via a pair of mixtapes—AI YoungBoy 2 last October and 38 Baby 2 in May—and his most recent album, Top. (Still Flexin, Still Steppin, his first of two mixtapes in 2020, also came close to topping the chart, bowing at No. 2 in March.)

While this "content-deluge strategy," as The New York Times writes, of frequently releasing new music and full-on projects has helped YoungBoy dominate the rap game, his relentless approach to creating is less about some marketing grand design and more of an emotional reaction to the moments he's living in now.  

"My brain ain't on standstill," YoungBoy explains. "My music is kind of my life, so you know the music ain't going to be at no standstill. I'll always feel like I got something to speak on or to say to get my point across. I'm always, like, in a moment with my music or with my thoughts or with my releases. That's kind of how I do that connection with my fans."

YoungBoy's rabid fan base is also key to his breakout success: After announcing the release of Top in August, the album topped the Apple Music charts based solely on preorders, according to Billboard. The impressive feat is a direct reflection of just how much his hungry fans follow his every step. 

But for YoungBoy, his direct relationship with his fans goes beyond streaming numbers and chart placements. 

"They mean everything," he says of his fans. "I always is true. I never hid nothing with them from the jump. So it's a reimbursement cycle going on with us, I guess. It's spiritual: I dish out pain, they dish out what they dish. But dish out the negative or positive, either way it go, I'm still noticed by them. I'm thankful for that—bet. They giving back and I'm giving back. It's a big cycle."

But as YoungBoy's star continues to rise in the public forum, so, too, does his personal life, which has become a constant source of legal issues, including multiple arrests and serious charges. Last August, he was placed on house arrest after violating his probation stemming from a 2016 shooting, according to Billboard. (He was allowed to record new music from his home and post it to YouTube while on house arrest, Baton Rouge, La., daily newspaper The Advocate reports.)

Much like YoungBoy keeps his struggles and intimate experiences at the fore in his music, he's used his legal battles and stints in jail as inspiration for his art. Last September, he released "House Arrest Tingz," a featured track on Top, whose video chronicles his experience on house arrest. 

"I really feel like it kind of trapped me because it was tough for me to make music in there," he says of his house arrest spell. "It really kind of trained me. I had a big writer's block. But I guess there's the whole thing of trying to get yourself together. I don't know, but it was a f***ed-up position they had me in."

While YoungBoy Never Broke Again remains one of the top rappers in the scene today—Top currently sits at No. 3 on the latest Billboard 200 chart, behind the late Pop Smoke, at the time of this writing—he "ain't satisfied" yet. 

"It's good. It's a big step forward," he says of his recent successes. 

And as for the reception of Top, he only asks fans and listeners for one thing.

"I don't want them to do sh*t but respect it. It's simple as that."

DaBaby Talks 'BLAME IT ON BABY (DELUXE),' Black Lives Matter Remix Of "ROCKSTAR" And Rap's Obsession With Deluxe Albums

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Some of the content on this site expresses viewpoints and opinions that are not those of the Recording Academy. Responsibility for the accuracy of information provided in stories not written by or specifically prepared for the Academy lies with the story's original source or writer. Content on this site does not reflect an endorsement or recommendation of any artist or music by the Recording Academy.