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Nicholas Britell

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Nicholas Britell On Scoring 'Succession' And 'The King' & Learning From Steve McQueen

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The Emmy-winning composer talks to the Recording Academy about moving between film and television, working with auteurs like Adam McKay and Barry Jenkins and more
GRAMMYs
Sep 18, 2019 - 10:58 am

It's safe to say that Nicholas Britell is living the dream—his dream, at least. "Ever since I was five years old, I loved movies and I loved music," the 38-year-old film and TV composer tells the Recording Academy over the phone. "As a composer, the dream is that you can write things and that people can feel the things that you're feeling."

That's exactly what Britell’s work does: It stirs up feelings, whether it’s the bittersweet strings that adorn director Barry Jenkins' 2018 tragic romance If Beale Street Could Talk, or the cascading pianos that usher viewers into the rareified air of the Roy family, the dysfunctional super-wealthy clan at the hardened heart of HBO's Succession. Britell's ear and knack for translating emotion have helped him build quite an impressive IMDb page over the past few years. He's collaborated with some of the most respected filmmakers active today—Jenkins, Steve McQueen, Adam McKay—which means his songs have appeared in two of this decade’s Best Picture winners (McQueen's 12 Years A Slave and Jenkins' Moonlight). Britell has earned some awards attention of his own, as well; he's been nominated for two Oscars for Best Original Score (for Moonlight and Beale Street, respectively) and, more recently, took home a Creative Arts Emmy for Outstanding Original Main Title Theme Music (for Succession, naturally). Odds are, if you have any friends who spend too much time on Film Twitter, they're fans of his.

The Recording Academy chatted with Britell about working alongside a series of auteurs, his score for the second season of Succession (which is presently dominating the TV discourse online), and his compositions for the upcoming Henry V-centric film The King, set to hit theaters on Oct. 11 before debuting on Netflix on Nov. 1. This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity. 

To start at the beginning of your recent run: What was it like being a young composer, working on a film as heavy and sobering as 12 Years A Slave and working with a master like Steve McQueen? 

Steve is incredible. It was truly inspiring and really a life-changing experience for me, to work closely with an artist like Steve, and to learn from him and just to see the way that he approaches things, his decision-making process, the way that he thinks about artistic choices. I often think back on that experience and I’ve stayed in close touch with Steve, and he’s been a very dear friend as well, since then. 

On IMDb, it says "Additional music" for your credit on 12 Years A Slave. Can you clarify: What was your level of involvement? You didn't handle all of the scoring, but you did some of it? 

Actually, I wasn't involved in the score of 12 Years A Slave. I wrote and researched and arranged all of the music that appears on-camera in the film. 

All of the diegetic music.

Exactly, all of the diegetic music. Everything from working with Chiwetel [Ejiofor] and coordinating, researching the type of fiddle tunes that an African-American violinst in 1841 in New York state might have played. Everything from that to exploring the field songs and dances in the South and collaborating with Steve on figuring out the best way to execute those performances. It was actually a huge research endeavor to figure out what's possible to be known about those types of performances and music, and also what are the limits of our knowledge on that. 

You've also collaborated with Barry Jenkins, who has such a distinct visual style, obviously, and favors a lot of close-ups of his characters, a lot of eye contact. What's it like composing for sequences and shots that are so direct, where the audience and the performer are both so vulnerable? 

One of the things about Barry's filmmaking style is that he creates a very full, rich aesthetic experience for the films that he makes. What you’re talking about, that sort of directness, is really emblematic of the way that he approaches all of the departments of the films: the colors, the cinematography, the music, the sound. There is a directness and a boldness with his choices, but it’s all in service of the feeling. A lot of what we’re trying to do, from my perspective, it’s about finding musical landscapes that can convey those feelings and the fullness of those feelings. 

And every film is different. There's no right score for something, there's just the score that you craft in collaboration with the director, at that moment in time. There are lots of possible scores, but I think one of the beautiful things about scoring is that it's so dependent on the process, and how it comes together, and that's what makes it unique to that film. Above all, it’s about finding a sound that feels like—for you and for the director—that it’s really woven into the fabric of the movie somehow. Some things just feel connected, in a way, and some don't. We ourselves don't really know, and the process is us experimenting together. 

You've also worked on two films with Adam McKay, who's an executive produer on Succession. Can you talk about how you got invovled with the show specifically? 

Well, actually, Succession was a result of those two films. I first worked with Adam on The Big Short, and it was after we finished The Big Short that we talked about Succession, and he told me about the premise and the ideas behind the show and asked if I wanted to be a part of the pilot, and of course I said yes. It was quite a few years ago, actually. My mental calendar is sort of a blur—but we did the pilot and I worked on that and then it was after the pilot, after some time, we then did the rest of the series and put it all together. 

I started talking to Adam about it before they shot the pilot and was able to go to set and be there for when they were shooting the pilot, which, it’s always a great experience because you get to see things up close. So, it directly came out of that experience of first working with Adam on The Big Short. I finished scoring Succession, the first season, while we were making Vice, actually, so I was doing those in parallel to some extent. 

The goal for me musically was that it had both this kind of gravitas to the seriousness of that world, which is—it’s a real issue in the world, that there are these increasing concentrations of wealth and power amongst fewer and fewer people. There's a darkness there, but there’s also this absurdity and I think that finding a tone that could balance both of those things was really the key. And it was very interesting, actually, working on Vice at the same time, because I feel working with Adam has been so crucial for me as a learning experience, too, and thinking about that interplay between drama and comedy.

How has the Succession score changed or developed from season one to season two? 

Season one really laid the groundwork for the thematic ideas and for the tone. Season two, I think it was really important for me that as the story evolved, I definitely wanted the music to continue its own evolution. I remember talking to Jesse [Armstrong, creator and showrunner of Succession] about this idea of, "Imagine a symphony that is Succession, what's the second movement sound like? What do we do?"

Also, you never want to overstay your welcome with certain musical ideas. There's definitely a sort of dark, maniacal streak to some of the music, and I want to make sure that when we’re using certain ideas, that we know exactly where and they have a power still. There’s certain new elements for Kendall, there are certain elements that are Shiv-focused. It’s the same Succession universe, but hopefully a bit more. 

How does working on a TV show compare to working on a feature-length film? 

The difference between film and TV is pretty large, actually. There's just so much more real estate in TV. Certainly, there's the micro-level approach, which is thinking episode to episode. But I really try to think about it as one entire piece, in a way. So, you're always thinking about, "Where do certain ideas get seeded, where do certain ideas come back? How does what we hear in episode one impact what we hear in episode 10?" It's actually quite challenging to think about that. 

That's something that I really love about film music, is thinking about the architecture of the ideas, like, where you start one idea and then how does it evolve, how does it change, where does it come back? And also, importantly, where do you not have music? That’s always really important, too. Each film has its own musical logic, and you’re trying to have the film tell you where it needs music and where it doesn't want music. 

You just won a Creative Arts Emmy for the Succession theme. There's always so much talk about awards campaigning, mostly about the Oscars. What does campaigning look like for a film composer? And how does it differ between the Oscars and the Emmys? 

I’m new to the TV world a bit. The film awards season and that process is very linked with the release of those films, so I view it very much as you're participating in helping bringing the film into the world. I remember last year, with Beale Street for example, it wasn’t even so much necessarily campaigning as it was, we would do a lot of Q&As at movie theaters, and really be there sharing what the story of the film is. 

With TV, actually, I haven’t done quite as much, I guess. In the sense that that kind of natural, going to movie theaters and doing Q&As and stuff, there really isn't as much of that. And I think that’s partly also just the nature of the medium. Which, I would actually add to that and say that I've been really awed by the level of audience that is possible from television. I love movies, and I love the movie theater experience, but I also think it is a wonderful thing that television is actually able to get out to more people, and more people, on a weekly basis, can participate in the stuff that you’re making. That’s been something of a new experience that I’ve had with working on a TV show. 

You worked on a film that's coming out in October, The King. Did you have to get into a dramatically different headspace as a composer, working on something that’s set that far back in the past? 

I definitely did not change my process. When I approach a new project, I try to have a blank slate in a way, where you’re trying to be open to feeling what that film or that series need in the way of music, and seeing what that is. Obviously, you don’t figure that out without talking to the director, and having that conversation: What are they feeling and what are they looking for? 

I remember with The King, the first thought that I had when I saw a rough cut of the movie was, "What would it be like if I imagined that the 1400s was actually like the 2500s?" You say to yourself, "What is that sort of sense of distance and time mean?" So I tried to create sounds early on that felt like they could be linked with the world that we were witnessing, but that also felt like they weren’t necessarily "period." I was very specifically not trying to say, "All of these instruments are from 1413."

So, the sound that I settled on, working with David [Michôd, director of The King], was this sound where it's a mixture of these bass clarinets that I pitched through this sort of tape filter that created a very strange texture. And then there’s the sound of a boys' choir, which emerges over the course of the film, and there's definitely some symbolism there, emotionally and musically, with the fact that this is a young man who is becoming king. And there were a lot of musical experiments that we did, too, with morphing some brass and morphing these sort of metallic sounds. I think it's about creating something that makes you lean into this world, to want to explore it—but at the same time, you need something that feels like it connects with you.        

I've seen a lot of people tweeting about your music, saying things like, "Just working all day to the Beale Street soundtrack." I imagine that if you're a film composer, it'd be rewarding to put your music out, but there would maybe be this fear that your work would be entombed with the movie it's for, just inseprarable from it. But it seems like people are more than happy to associate your compositions with the films, but also to break them out and use them in their own lives. 

Well, thank you. I definitely feel like when I’m writing, it's very important that the music for film can exist both inside and outside the project. I think that's maybe a little bit of an aesthetic criteria for me, of whether something works. For any piece that I’m writing for a movie, the music has to be able to exist on its own, hopefully, as an idea. So, I do think about its ability to exist outside of the project, but certainly, the number one goal is that it's right for the project. That's its only reason for being there. 

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Bearcubs

Bearcubs

Photo: Jacob Lindell

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Bearcubs Talks 'Early Hours,' Berlin, Art As A Platform For Change & Scoring His First Film

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The British singer/producer also talks how about discovering Flying Lotus inspired him to produce electronic music, writing "Everyplace Is Life" on a train and the biggest thing he's learned during quarantine
Ana Monroy Yglesias
GRAMMYs
Aug 7, 2020 - 12:39 pm

Laid back, curious and easy to chat with, U.K.-born, Berlin-based electro-chill artist Bearcubs, a.k.a. Jack Ritchie, embodies the relaxed, bubbly music he makes. Growing up playing drums, piano and guitar, he started producing chillwave-leaning electronic tracks in his final year of college in 2012, posting them to SoundCloud during that golden age of bedroom producers.

His second EP, 2017's Underwaterfall, featured steel drums, water drips and enchanting moody soundscapes and saw major outlets comparing him to James Blake and Jamie XX. Not long after, in 2018, he moved from his longtime home of London to Berlin, released his debut album, Ultraviolet, and scored his first film.

This May, while quarantining in Berlin, Ritchie released his sophomore album, Early Hours, 10 tracks of effervescent, cloud-watching daydreams inspired by memories from his final months in London and first year in Berlin.

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GRAMMY.com caught up with the British artist to chat about his latest album, moving to Berlin, scoring for film and learning to limit screen time during quarantine. Ritchie also shares how discovering Flying Lotus in college inspired him to produce electronic music, how he believes art as a major platform for social change and more.

You recently released your sophomore album, Early Hours. How are you feeling about sharing this project, and what was your main goal with it?

I'm pretty excited to share it, to be honest. Before I put these three singles out, I hadn't really released any of my music in about over a year and a half. So I took quite a long pause between previous projects and this one, just because I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do. And I did a film score, which took up a big chunk of time. I had a lot of time to think about what I wanted to do musically. Also, when I moved to Berlin, it was a bit of a growing point in my life, because I was living in London for years before then and was leaving some of my friends and family behind.

I wanted to use the album a bit to sum up my past three or four years living in London and the experiences I had there, going out and working in pubs and living with a bunch of mates from home. All of this stuff, I just wanted to get this feeling into the album. Maybe a little bit nostalgic, yeah. I didn't want to go into that too much because I think you can overindulge nostalgia. It's a kind of bridge between my life in London a few years ago and then moving to Berlin and meeting new people and getting to terms with that whole situation.

That's so cool. When did you move to Berlin?

It was just about two years ago now, August of 2018.

Do you like Berlin?

It feels like home now. I love it. It's such a chill place to live. I was coming here on holiday and I realized I was coming here more and more often. It was every six months, then every three months, then every few weeks, and then it was like, "I might as well just live here." For me, it's got such a chill and kind of impossible feeling. And there's lots of interesting creative stuff going on. It's quite a 24-hour city. All of those kinds of things made me want to be here.

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Last year, you scored the German film Relativity. How was the creative process for that project different than with Bearcubs, and is scoring something you'd like to do more of?

I was a bit nervous actually, because I've never done a film score before. But it was one of those things I just couldn't say no to it because it was too much of an opportunity. And it was a real challenge, but it was a lot of fun, because I'm used to working within I guess what you'd call a pop writing structure, with five-minute songs. To work with a film score, I had to think about things in terms of 15, 20 minutes and moments happening in the music—things have to become intense and then the music has to fade into the background and not interfere.

It was definitely a different process. The way I started most of the music for the score was I got a rough cut of the film and then I just sat with the piano and watched some of the main scenes. I sketched out the idea of what the mood would be on the piano and tried to get some of the timing right. And I had a lot of contact with the director, Mariko Minoguchi. It was basically a collaboration with me and her because it was her first film as well, so I was like her baby. And I think she entrusted me to make the music because she thought I could do something a bit different and interesting with it as opposed to going with a hardcore experienced composer.

When I went to Munich, she took me through a lot of the story and broke down what she wanted the motives of the characters to be and stuff. I made a lot of music that I sent to them where they were like, "No, that's not quite right." We did a lot of back and forth until we got to a good place. It was really fun to do.

How do you feel like moving to Berlin has influenced your art and/or creative process?

Well, it definitely just gave me a bit of time—for some reason, here compared to London, it feels a bit more relaxed and less hustle-y. Even though it's good to hustle sometimes because it drives you to do you stuff, in Berlin, I feel like there's a little less competition and it's more like people boosting each other up, like a community thing. I've definitely been influenced by that, as well as by the people who I've met.

I've met a lot of really cool, interesting artists here. One of the first collaborations I did when I got here was with a producer and a friend of mine, narou. Literally the first stuff we did, we ended up making "Overthinking," which was the first single on my new album. So yeah, I've done collaborations with people here and the vibe of the city and the people I've met have influenced me.

I feel like being in a new place can really do that. How long did you live in London? Or is that where you grew up?

I feel like I've always lived in London even though I didn't, because my hometown is just above London, about 20 minutes away. It's a smaller town called St Albans. It's quite a nice place. Growing up, I was always going into London, and later I lived in various places in London, for about six years in East London and Tottenham. I mean, I love London, but I felt like it was time for a change. I wanted to mix it up a bit. Especially since coming here to Berlin, I've felt new surroundings is always good for creativity and giving you new ideas.

You shared that you wrote the lyrics for one of the lead singles, "Everyplace is Life," while on a train in the U.K. Can you tell us more about that moment that inspired the song, as well as the creative journey that led to the finished product?

I often do this thing of making loads of notes in my phone. Sometimes it's just a word, literally, or I see a book title and I write that down, or a little stupid poem or something like that. I kind of use it as my little second brain that I can go back to. For "Everyplace is Life," I think it was a couple of summers back, I was on the train down to Brighton to play the Great Escape festival. And I don't know, it was just one of those days when you're in a really [good mood] and everything's just wonderful.

It was kind of that. I was in a good mood, and it was that thing when you're on public transport and you look around and you see everyone else—sometimes you forget that everyone else has got their own life, and there's all these stories. And you're like, "I wonder where that person's going. I wonder what they're doing." And you kind of imagine these stories about everyone's lives. It is kind of about that, about those little moments in life. And about slowing down and appreciating little moments, whether they're good or bad at the time, they're all kind of meaningful.

I love that. You said you wrote the lyrics a few years ago, right? And then when did you pick it up and create the beat and the melody?

Yeah. I can't remember exactly [when I revisited it]. I think it was maybe six months ago. I don't quite know what made me do it, but I was like, "Oh, I've got a song that I wrote a while back. I still haven't used it." And I remembered the feeling when I wrote the lyrics and just started from that and started making the beat and the chords. My influence for the track was the Little Dragon song "Ritual Union." I've never heard a track before that's very constant all throughout. The beat keeps going and it's very driving and repetitive, and I wanted to make a song like that, that kept going and didn't really stop. "Everyplace is Life" is me trying to do that, because the beat and everything is relentless through, and then the lyrics are the thing on the top that give the changes and make it interesting.

And then for the album overall, about how long was the process?

Yeah, it was maybe spread across a period of a couple of years, but I'd say in total it was probably only seven months of doing it. I wrote a couple of the tracks a couple of years ago, "Everyplace is Life" and "Diversions." And then I moved to Berlin and spent six months doing the soundtrack, so that took up all my time. After that, as I'd had a while off from making my music, I desperately needed to make something.

Basically, the whole of the rest of the album came in about a period of a few months. It came in a flurry. After that, it was choosing the tracks and refining them, and all of the boring technical stuff at the end. But yeah, it wasn't actually very long. It all came together at the end. I was just looking back at stuff over the past few years, and mixing that with the experiences I've had sincemoving to Berlin.

You launched the Early Hours podcast this year. What is your vision for it and what did it feel like to step out of your "comfort zone," like you said when you shared it, in that way?

Yeah, it was definitely something out of the box for me. I'd never done anything like that before, so it was a nice thing to do. Whenever I do something that I'm a little bit nervous of doing or I wouldn't usually do, I always feel like I get something more out of it. Once we started, it felt really easy. Especially because I was with narou and another friend James Hersey, who's a singer and also based in Berlin. It was kind of like hanging out with your mates, talking about music, which is kind of what I wanted the vibe of the podcast to be. 

I think in the future, I want to make it a bit more centered around having a record player in the middle of the room and everyone brings in a vinyl. When I was at uni, I had a record player and I'd go to the record shop with my housemate and we'd buy a record and then put it on and drink a cup of tea and listen to a whole vinyl. And just look at the front and back covers and the lyrics on the inner sleeve. I feel like that's kind of lost from streaming stuff online. That's my future vision for the podcast. It's kind of something which enables you to slow down and listen to music and chat about it in a relaxed way. Who knows what's going to happen with it, we'll see.

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When did you first start making music? And at what point did you think it was something that you wanted to do professionally?

I mean, I've kind of been making music most of my life. I started pretty young playing drums, at seven. And then piano and guitar, and in my teenage years, I was in quite a lot of bands. I played guitar in a funk band and I was in a '90s hip-hop band playing bass. I played in some hardcore punk bands as well. I didn't really get into electronic stuff until I was at university, because I did digital music and sound arts. I got introduced to electronic music by people who were in my course and I was going to university with.

That opened my mind up to electronic and dance music, because don't think I really respected it fully before. I was always into hip-hop and some electronic stuff like Prodigy and bands like that, but I was never really fully into it. But when I heard some of these producers, especially the early beat scene people like Flying Lotus, the way they make their beats, you can't tell what's going on. You're like, "How on earth have they made this?" I think that's what made me want to start producing. Now I've become a bit more jaded I guess, because I know how things are made and I've got my producer's ear a bit more, but if I don't know how some things were made, that really excites me.

I started putting stuff up on SoundCloud and getting a bit of a following, somehow. I got a paid remix, and I was like, "Oh my God. Someone's paying me to make music." That's what made me think, "Oh, I could do this professionally as well." So I started devoting more and more time to it. Before then, I might have made one song every six months, and now I'm trying to make one song every day almost.

I always love hearing about the evolution of the music that someone is into. When you started university, what did you envision you would be doing at the end of it?

I don't think I really knew. I kind of went to university for the sake of it. I didn't know what to do. I was into music, but I was also not really sure what I wanted to do musically. When I was 17, I wanted to be a guitarist. But after uni, I kind of stopped playing guitar and was way more focused on electronic stuff. I think I was just exploring and figuring things out. And then when I did start making more electronic stuff and when I started the Bearcubs project, then I felt like I had more of a goal of like, "Okay, this can go forward and can go somewhere."

Who was the first remix you did for?

It was a weird indie duo from the U.K. Their label got in contact with me and asked, "Do you want to do a remix?" And I was like, "Yeah, definitely."

And it was because of the music that you had put out yourself on SoundCloud?

Yeah, exactly. It was just people finding me through my SoundCloud stuff, which I was amazed about, like, "How have you found me?"

Do you remember when you put your first song up on SoundCloud?

It would have been 2012, the year I was leaving university. Yeah, it was kind of dumb, I only really got into electronic music when I was leaving the electronic music course. That's the way it was. It was a track called "Measures," I think, and it had a "Breaking Bad" sample in it. I hadn't even watched the show, but there was this awesome vocal sample where he's like, "You either take a half measure or you go the whole way," or something like that. I guess it was like chill wave. I was listening to stuff like Toro y Moi and Flying Lotus and Baths.

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What do you feel like is the biggest thing you've learned about yourself during quarantine?

That's quite a good one. I think I was getting way too much screen time before. I realized I was waking up, looking at my phone, then having breakfast, then working on my laptop all day, while looking at my phone in between when I was taking breaks on my lunch. Then having dinner and going back on my phone, and watching Netflix or films and stuff. So I'd literally spend my whole day on a screen. I don't know why quarantine taught me that, but I think it's because I was indoors so much that it just became more realistic to be [on] the screen so much.

Now I have a policy where I don't check my phone until like 10 or 11 in the morning, once I've got up and done everything. I've been trying to look at my phone less and read more and not be on the computer as much.

How do you think music and art can bring about social change?

I think the power of music and other art forms is that it can sum up a mood of a time or generation in such a subtle but precise way. It's such a powerful platform for change and rebellion because everyone in the world is consuming culture on a day-to-day basis. We are all affected by the events going on around us even if we don't realize it consciously. As artists, this manifests itself through what we create, and as people through what we want to see and hear. It resonates with our current mood and sense of place in the world. The '60s was such a big period of change in women's and Black people's rights as well as freedoms and the opposition to power structures—the culture, fashion, music and the ideas of peace and love were completely reflected in that and tied together with the political message.

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In your opinion, how can the music community contribute to dismantling racism?

I think now it's about going above and beyond to support and boost up Black artists. It's disappointing that the music industry has benefitted from Black music without acknowledging its culture. It's about checking our privilege and becoming aware of how we perceive Black and non-Black music; making space and giving Black artists a voice across the music industry; demanding more diverse festival and gig bookings; and making more of an effort as artists to collaborate with and lift up our Black brothers and sisters. In an ideal world, we would embrace all colors and races, but the level of inequality and racism now is so ingrained in our societies that we must face this and make conscious efforts every day to change it.

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Leiomy Maldonado on the set of HBO Max's "Legendary"

Leiomy Maldonado on the set of HBO Max's "Legendary"

Photo: Barbara Nitke/HBO Max

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Leiomy Maldonado On How Her HBO Max Show "Legendary" Is Giving The Masses A "Real Ballroom Experience"

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As a judge on the hit voguing competition TV series, the hard-working trans dancer, model and activist is once again mainstreaming modern-day ball culture and shining a light on the fierce art of voguing
Susan L. Hornik
GRAMMYs
Jul 11, 2020 - 2:04 pm

Leiomy Maldonado eats, sleeps and drinks voguing, a highly stylized type of dance originating in New York City's LGBTQ+ Black and Latinx underground ballroom scene between the '60s and '80s.

Known as the "Wonder Woman Of Vogue," the hard-working trans dancer, model and activist is known for her work in mainstreaming voguing and ballroom culture. In addition to being the first openly trans contestant on MTV's "America's Best Dance Crew," she choreographs the ball scenes on FX's Emmy-winning drama, "POSE." She's also worked with celebrities like Beyoncé, Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Janet Jackson, Willow Smith and Icona Pop.  

With her latest project, serving as one of the judges on HBO Max's hit voguing competition TV series, "Legendary," Maldonado is once again pushing modern-day ball culture to the masses. 

During each episode of "Legendary," individual teams, known as "houses," compete in themed "balls," which feature a variety of creative categories like fashion and dance challenges, including voguing, posing and walking—all while wearing incredible costumes and outfits. As the show progresses, houses are eliminated until one team is left "slaying." The winning house achieves "Legendary" status and takes home a $100,000 grand prize.

"The world got to see ballroom culture via 'POSE,' and the struggles of the community," Maldonado tells GRAMMY.com. "It opened doors for a show like 'Legendary,' where now you get to see the real deal. It's raw and authentic, not scripted, not made up: a real ballroom experience."

"Legendary," which is hosted by "King Of Vogue" and actor/MC Dashaun Wesley, sees Maldonado offering the houses sage advice on what it takes to win ballroom competitions each week. Celebrity judges Law Roach, who has styled stars like Zendaya, Ariana Grande and Celine Dion; actress/host Jameela Jamil; and breakthrough rapper Megan Thee Stallion round out the judges cast.

Following the breakout success of "Legendary," which just wrapped its debut season Thursday (July 9), HBO Max has renewed the series for a second season, which will film in Los Angeles and will feature all the original judges and host. (Online, the show has taken a second life: The “Legendary" TikTok dance challenge has received over 2.6 billion views, surpassing Megan Thee Stallion's own viral challenge for her track "Savage," which has over 30 million videos.)

GRAMMY.com spoke with Maldonado about music's important role in voguing and ball culture, the dire situation trans women are facing today and the 30th anniversaries of the iconic ball culture documentary, Paris Is Burning, and Madonna's epic song, "Vogue."

What drew you to voguing and the underground ballroom scene?

I fell in love with voguing back in 2003. This was a way for me to find myself through dancing; I could express all this emotion and frustration I was going through as a young teen transitioning. When I became part of the ballroom scene, that's when I really started educating myself on the importance of the culture [and] why it plays such a big role for our community. I just knew this was the place for me.

This year marks the 30th anniversary of Paris Is Burning, the definitive documentary on underground LGBTQ+ ballroom culture. How has the film impacted you?

Paris Is Burning was one of the most important films that showcased our culture to the world. It touched on the immense struggles the trans women were dealing with. Listening to them speak was incredible. That movie really inspired me to do something with my talent and bring ballroom to the forefront.

2020 is also the 30th anniversary of Madonna's song, "Vogue," which brought voguing to mainstream culture. 

In a good way, it was amazing for voguing to have been given a spotlight. That song put voguing on the map; we would have never had that chance otherwise. It was, of course, groundbreaking; it paved the way for voguing to be seen and accepted. 

Still, I feel like it should have been more than just one situation. A lot of times, people just use something for the moment, instead of understanding the bigger picture of it. Honestly, when that song came out, it wasn't about the voguing or the community. As opposed to now, when you are seeing voguing [and] ballroom, it's about the community. I feel like that is a huge difference. It's a different type of celebration.

Leiomy Maldonado on the set of HBO Max's "Legendary"

Leiomy Maldonado on the set of HBO Max's "Legendary" | Courtesy Photo: HBO Max

"Legendary" stands upon the shoulders of "POSE."

Yes, "POSE" highlights voguing culture, showcasing moments that happened in real ballroom history. While it is a scripted show, some of the things that have happened on "POSE" have happened in ballroom. The fact that these stories are being told [is] so important. 

The world got to see ballroom culture via "POSE," and the struggles of the community. It opened doors for a show like "Legendary," where now you get to see the real deal. It's raw and authentic, not scripted, not made up: a real ballroom experience.

How has music played a role in voguing?

Music has been very important to ballroom and voguing. For every category [competition], there is a style of music that gets played, so the people can be [and] feel in that theme or character. With ballroom, it changes so much; there is a lot of variety, artistry [and] talent. Things are going to change; you are not just going to be stuck with one DJ, with one commentator on the mic. You are going to get different flavors and styles. That is so beautiful. Without music, the world would kinda suck! Music makes the world go round! Now you get to see how ballroom culture inspires the world.

As one of the show's celebrity judges, what does Megan Thee Stallion bring to the table? 

Megan brings a lot of love and inspiration. She wants to make sure each team is comfortable in their skin doing what they are doing and are engaging with the audience. As a performer, she understands being onstage and what it takes to command that attention, showing that you are confident.

Read: How Black Trans Artists Are Fighting To Achieve Racial Justice & Amplify Queer Voices

While "Legendary" celebrates trans culture, we are living in a world where countless trans women of color have been killed. What's it going to take to change this? 

People forget that trans folks are human. I truly don't understand what the struggle is. As humans, we have feelings, we have compassion. But when it comes to trans women of color being killed, you don't really see much of that.

A lot of the frustration nowadays comes from the fact that our own people of color are not fighting for us. That's hurtful and heartbreaking, because when men and women of color are being taken from us, we are out there fighting on the frontlines with them because we are all fighting together as people of color. 

But when it comes to trans people being killed, it's like, "Oh no, their lives don't matter." What's important is for allies, people in the community, etc., to be visible, loud and protecting us to the utmost, not only when it's your friend. 

A few weeks ago, I put up a fake obituary on my Instagram just to alarm people, like, "Hey, this could be me." For many of the responses, it was an awakening call for them, like, "Wow, I never thought about that." People need to understand that this shouldn't only be important if it happens to someone close to you. We are all one community, and are all in this together. 

There is a lot of solidarity between the LGBTQ+ community and Black Lives Matter movement. Let's talk about their intersectionality.

The Black Lives Matters movement was started by two women of color, and they are part of the (LGBTQ+) community. That alone is mind-boggling to me. We need to be vocal about the protection that we deserve and are in need of.

That needs to trickle down within the community as well. A lot of times, we deal with transphobia, misunderstanding, miscommunication from people who are gay, lesbian and bisexual. That to me is equally mind-boggling. We need to put the work in and understand how important it is for us to be together.

How do you see the music of ballroom evolving?

I would love to see the hip-hop community be more accepting of ballroom, even to have collaboration. I feel like a lot of these barriers that are being held onto should be broken down. We need to start appreciating people for their talent and what they bring to the table. Forget about gender and labels. 

Want To Support Protesters And Black Lives Matter Groups? Here's How

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Terence Blanchard

Terence Blanchard

Photo: Henry Adebonojo

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Terence Blanchard On The Music Behind 'Da 5 Bloods,' Working With Spike Lee And The Lasting Impact Of Marvin Gaye

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The six-time GRAMMY-winning composer and trumpeter discusses how Marvin Gaye's iconic 1971 album, 'What's Going On,' shaped the film and his own life
Susan L. Hornik
GRAMMYs
Jun 27, 2020 - 2:04 pm

It's no wonder film director/writer Spike Lee and six-time GRAMMY-winning composer/trumpeter Terence Blanchard are lifelong collaborators—their level of mastery together makes for exquisite storytelling.  

Blanchard first worked with the director in the late '80s when he performed on the soundtrack for Lee's 1989 breakthrough film, Do The Right Thing. The two have since worked together on more than 15 films including Jungle Fever (1991), Malcolm X (1992) and Summer of Sam (1999). Lee's 2018 film, BlacKkKlansman, which earned him an Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay, garnered Blanchard his first Oscar nomination for Best Original Score. 

Blanchard now returns to the scoring seat on Lee's newly released Netflix film Da 5 Bloods, yet another gut-wrenching drama from the socially conscious filmmaker.

The epic war drama tells the story of four African-American Vietnam War veterans who return to the country in search of the remains of their fallen Squad Leader and the buried treasure they left behind decades ago. 

The film's score, for which Blanchard utilized a 90-piece orchestra, features several songs from Marvin Gaye's iconic 1971 album What's Going On, which largely provides the movie's musical and thematic backbone.

"His music shapes the film in an immense way," Blanchard tells GRAMMY.com in a recent interview. "The lyrics are very powerful. I remember when Spike told me he was going to use it, it automatically just sent me down a direction, musically, where I wanted the score to have a grand feel to it. I wanted it to have more of a universal theme. I knew that Gaye's music was going to cover a certain aspect of the emotion of dealing with social injustice in this country."

GRAMMY.com spoke with Terence Blanchard about the musical vision behind Da 5 Bloods and how Marvin Gaye's quintessential album shaped the film and his own life.

With the recent Black Lives Matter protests, Da 5 Bloods seems even more timely. 

Sadly, I kinda felt the film was timely even without those events because we are still dealing with those same issues. With the [tragedies] of George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks and Breonna Taylor, it's just amplified what we have been talking about for decades.  

Spike has been known to constantly produce films that not only entertain, but make you reflect on the state of our social consciousness right now. I feel blessed that the movie is sparking debate, just like BlacKkKlansman did. But now, we have to go beyond debate and create legislation, change hearts and minds and really look for substantive change.

The opening montage of Da 5 Bloods, which illustrated the racially charged anguish of the Vietnam era in the 1960s, is heartbreaking to watch. 

It speaks to the whole nature of … people of color [having] been screaming about injustice for decades. If people were really listening in places of power, then that portion of the movie would be irrelevant, you know? But the sad truth of it is, we haven't moved the needle as much as we'd like to think that we have. The mere fact that we have a president who is willing to have a rally on Juneteenth in Tulsa, [Okla.], a place where Black Wall Street was dismantled—that says a lot about racism in this country and how people are still trying to justify those actions. So when I see a montage like that, it's heart-wrenching. 

But I know there are so many other stories to be told from our culture … Finally, it feels like people are starting to wake up to what is really going on and not constantly [falling] back into a position of defending. I think Spike has always been great at pushing that envelope, trying to make people reflect on what's been happening.

Speaking of "what's going on," let's talk about how Marvin Gaye's music served as the backbone of this film.

His music shapes the film in an immense way. The lyrics are very powerful. I remember when Spike told me he was going to use it, it automatically just sent me down a direction, musically, where I wanted the score to have a grand feel to it. I wanted it to have more of a universal theme. I knew that Gaye's music was going to cover a certain aspect of the emotion of dealing with social injustice in this country.

I wanted the score to partner with that in such a way to broaden the experience to hopefully draw more people to the film. One of the things we all know is that complacency is the enemy of change. We can't sit on the sidelines anymore. We have to become active and really do our part to effect change.

Read: Fight The Power: 11 Powerful Protest Songs Advocating For Racial Justice

What was Gaye's influence on your own life?

"What's Going On"—I remember when I first heard that, it was an impactful thing. As a kid, obviously we didn't have social media back then. That song made me feel like I wasn't by myself, that I wasn't crazy [for] feeling the things that I was feeling. 

Marvin's music, along with James Brown's "Say It Loud – I'm Black and I'm Proud," were things that started to shape my thinking in terms of being proud of who I am, what I could accomplish in my life and hopefully what I could give back to the world.

If you chronicle what has happened in the music industry, Gaye was a heterosexual male who was socially conscious—a strong male figure in the '70s who was a R&B singer. He broke through to other areas of the music world; back then, we used to call it "crossover." 

It's hard to find singers that have crossed over like that today. He wasn't afraid to talk about certain things or deal with issues. When you look at Sam Cooke, who was a balladeer, he sang a lot of beautiful songs. It wasn't until he sang “A Change Is Gonna Come" did people really start to understand that he was socially conscious.

With Marvin Gaye, we knew that; we got a sense of that. It felt he was out there speaking for us and to us at the same time.

Spike Lee (L) and Terence Blanchard (R) at a scoring session for 'Da 5 Bloods'

Spike Lee (L) and Terence Blanchard (R) at a scoring session for Da 5 Bloods | Photo: Matt Sayles | © 2020 Netlfix Inc.  All rights Reserved.

Working with Spike for the past 30 years, what has he taught you?

He's taught me a lot about how to follow your heart. One of the things I have always loved about Spike is that he is a film historian. He loves film and knows it backwards and forwards. He doesn't allow that knowledge of history to totally shape what it is that he does. He still has his own vision about what's possible and what could be done. 

That is something that has always inspired me because I am the same way, being a jazz musician. You want to know your history, in terms of the music, but you don't want to be bound by it. You still want to use it as a springboard to move further and further into the future.

How do you use music to speak for you?

It's an interesting thing. I know it speaks for me, but I think a lot of it is me healing myself. With the types of films that Spike has done and my relationship with him, we have done topics that have been dear to my heart as well. In the process of dealing with that, you are trying to find some resolution. Hopefully, you are creating something that most people can relate to. 

I tend to think there are more people going through exactly what I am going through. Witnessing the depth of George Floyd on national television breaks my heart, angers me and enrages me in such a way that I know there are a lot of other Americans out there that are going through the same thing. Being an artist, you cannot turn away from those feelings, those issues, that passion. You have to utilize that and allow it to help create the music. Not the intellect; that's how we study and know how to make things work. It's that combination of passion and brains that allow you to come up with the ideas for these projects.

Read: The Impressions' "People Get Ready" At 55: How Curtis Mayfield Created A Musical Balm For Black America

What do you love more, performing your jazz music or composing?

I love performing, there's no doubt! But right now, due to the [coronavirus] pandemic, I love composing! I am a little nervous about being out in public; I have had friends and mentors succumb to COVID-19. It's just all too much at one time. It made me understand how real this issue is and how seriously we have to take it. It's unfortunate that the virus has been used for political gain. It potentially has put lives in danger. 

Terence Blanchard at a scoring session for 'Da 5 Bloods'

Terence Blanchard at a scoring session for Da 5 Bloods | Photo: Matt Sayles | © 2020 Netlfix Inc.  All rights Reserved.

It seems like you have a love for and commitment to socially conscious projects. 

One of the things that has always drawn me to certain artists in the jazz world is their ability to chronicle what has been going on in their environment. Look at John Coltrane's [civil rights elegy] "Alabama" for the four little girls—[Editor's Note: In 1963, Ku Klux Klan members killed four young Black girls in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing in Birmingham, Ala.]—and Max Roach's Freedom Now Suite ... I have always tried to be an artist that is always socially conscious. This is something that is a part of who I am. I feel like if I have a small, little platform, I should use it to try to raise people's consciousness.  

In an interview with Variety, you talked about the racism you had encountered as a Black composer. Do you see this changing?

Of course it's changing. Like anything else, people always say the wheels of change grind slowly … We need more women and people of color to have opportunities to play. We all know they are out there. It's not a vacuum of talent; there's talent all over the place. Opportunities need to happen for a lot of folks.  

What's next on your bucket list?

You know, it's that striving to write the perfect melody and the perfect piece of music, whatever that is. That's always been my passion: trying to strike the perfect tone between the intellect and the heart that will best represent any given moment of time in honor of our environmental experience—something that speaks truth to power.

You also scored the music for HBO's new crime noir TV series, "Perry Mason." What was your vision for that project?

My vision was to create something fresh that would be inviting for new viewers, but still harken to the period. Creating music for that genre is to allow the story to inform you. In any film, there will be gaps in the storytelling process, which is the reason why you have a score. The score can help push those emotional moments that help tell the story.

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Josh Gad

Josh Gad

Photo: Crawford Shippey

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Josh Gad Talks New Animated TV Show "Central Park" And His Mission To Become A Better Ally

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The GRAMMY-winning actor and singer breaks down the creative and musical vision that make "Central Park" a "true musical" and discusses how he's using his platform to address racial injustice head-on
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Jun 20, 2020 - 4:59 pm

Central Park represents a lot of things for a lot of people. For locals, it's a haven, a much-needed escape from the concrete jungle of New York City. For tourists, it's a must-see destination atop an endless list of can't-miss city stops. Josh Gad's version of Central Park is something all its own.

On "Central Park," his new animated musical TV comedy, now streaming on Apple TV+, the GRAMMY-winning actor and singer paints the beloved NYC landmark as a quirky place offering diverse sounds and colors through the prism of the city. Or as his character on the show, the happy-go-lucky busking narrator Birdie, calls it, "It's like New York, but undressed." 

Like the sprawling sight itself, "Central Park" is a unique composite of equally unique parts. There's the all-star cast, which includes GRAMMY winners and "Hamilton" stars Leslie Odom Jr. and Daveed Diggs, as well as Hollywood giants Kristen Bell, Stanley Tucci, Tituss Burgess and Kathryn Hahn. There's the stellar soundtrack, which features songs written by Fiona Apple, Meghan Trainor, Cyndi Lauper and Sara Bareilles, among many others. Then there's the creative team behind it all, which includes co-creators/co-executive producers Loren Bouchard, the creator of fellow animated hit TV series "Bob's Burgers," Emmy Award winner Nora Smith and Gad himself. 

But first and foremost, "Central Park" is a musical, a deliberate move Gad made from the jump.

"When I pitched this idea to Loren Bouchard ... and his partner, Nora Smith, I said to them, 'I want to do a true musical,'" Gad tells the Recording Academy. "'I don't want this to be a pastiche musical, I don't want it to be a spoof of musicals. I don't even want it to be a show with music. I want it to be a musical. I want the songs to be a part of the very fabric of the story, and I want the characters to have no emotional choice but to break out into song.'"

The show follows the Central Park-dwelling Tillerman family, which includes Owen (Odom Jr.), the patriarch of the family who works as the park's manager; Paige (Hahn), the journalist mom of the crew; and their two children, Molly (Bell) and Cole (Burgess). Their home is threatened when hotel tycoon Bitsy Brandenham (Tucci) and her assistant Helen (Diggs) try to turn Central Park into luxury condos. 

Despite the show's playfully ominous premise, "Central Park" has become a beacon of light for Gad since it debuted last month (May 29) during the coronavirus-fueled quarantine era. 

"It's surreal to see the kind of light it's bringing people in this moment of infinite darkness that we find ourselves in," he says of the show, "and it's a joy to be able to give something that is so joyful to the world." 

The Recording Academy chatted with Josh Gad about the creative and musical vision behind "Central Park," the dystopian soundtrack to 2020 and the lessons he's learned while working to become a better ally.

"Central Park" features what I would consider the definition of an all-star cast. The Los Angeles Times described it best: "The Avengers of musical theater." As one of the show's creators and executive producers, how involved were you in the casting? How did you navigate that process?

I was responsible for doing it. It was a conversation that I had with Loren [Bouchard] at the beginning, before we even had a script. He said, "On Bob's Burgers, what we did was we cast the people that we wanted to work with, and then we built characters around them." By casting the people we want to work with, he meant your friends, people that you see yourself doing this with. I reached out to all of the people that I knew I would want to not only work with, but that could legitimately carry a musical and not have it feel like we were bullsh*tting the audience, that we were autotuning anybody, that we were not giving anyone a voice that could legitimately match the incredible level on display in terms of the music that was written for the show.

I began by reaching out to people, like my college classmate Leslie Odom Jr. who had just won a Tony for a glowing performance in "Hamilton." And somebody I admired greatly also from ["Hamilton"], Daveed Diggs; both said yes. Kristen Bell, my co-star from Frozen, it was an immediate yes. And one by one—Tituss Burgess, Kathryn Hahn and Stanley Tucci—all signed on, and Loren and I were just in awe; we just couldn't believe it ... It's been very much about making sure that everyone who comes on really rises to the level of not only being the perfect vocal match for dialogue and the speaking voice, but also for the singing voice.

How do you go about balancing the plot with the songs? Do you write the songs and the show's plot congruently? Are the songs inspired by the plot itself, or vice versa?

It's a bit of both. When I pitched this idea to Loren Bouchard ... and his partner, Nora Smith, I said to them, "I want to do a true musical. I don't want this to be a pastiche musical, I don't want it to be a spoof of musicals. I don't even want it to be a show with music. I want it to be a musical. I want the songs to be a part of the very fabric of the story, and I want the characters to have no emotional choice but to break out into song."

We really tried to make it as cohesive a process as possible. Meaning, every episode we asked the question, "What moments want and need to sing? And what moments of the story feel like they need to be told through music rather than dialogue?" Once we have isolated what those moments are, then we break it down even further and we ask ourselves, "Do we want this song to be a function of the story? To tell us plot? Do we want this song to function as a comedic song? Do we want the song to function as an 'I want' song?" 

Once we identify those, then we go to the composers, either our in-house brilliant team of Kate Anderson and Elyssa Samsel and Brent Knopf, or our guest composers, people like Anthony Hamilton, people like Cyndi Lauper, people like Aimee Mann and Alan Menken, and we then have them bring their magic.

The show has been in production for a few years, prior to the quarantine. Did you have plans to take this show from TV to the stage? Or is that something that's potentially still in progress?

Oh, that hasn't even been broached. People have already started asking that question like yourself, which gives me such joy that people would even consider it to be worthy enough for the stage. I think right now, we're just trying to do our day job and we're in the midst of season two, and we're in the midst of literally creating an entire animated series from our respective homes. That's been the real challenge right now: How do we, in this ever-changing world, keep the wheels turning?

Read: Glen Ballard On How His Netflix Show "The Eddy" Puts Music, Jazz And Performance First

Your character in the show is a huge fan of Central Park. What about you?

I'm a huge fan of "Central Park." I've been a fan of "Central Park" for the past year. It's been a really frustrating thing to not be able to share it with the world until now. It is surreal to see kids already singing these songs in a way that truly reminds me of the experience I've had with Frozen. It's surreal to see the kind of light it's bringing people in this moment of infinite darkness that we find ourselves in, and it's a joy to be able to give something that is so joyful to the world. 

So much of the content that is on TV, it has a cynicism about it. What I love about Loren and what I love about Nora is they approach "Bob's [Burgers]" and subsequently "Central Park," along with myself, with a desire to just infuse as much joy into the world as possible.

As far as the songwriting team, were you wanting to keep a regular cast of songwriters and composers? Or were you trying to institute an open-door approach?

Philosophically, my idea from the beginning was, if we're going to write four songs an episode, over 45 songs in a season, I do not want to put the burden on any one or even two individuals. I knew that we needed to have an anchor back at base, if you will, and that anchor became Kate and Elyssa, who I'd worked with on [2017 animated featurette] Olaf's Frozen Adventure years ago. I knew they were geniuses, and similarly Brent Knopf who came out of the "Bob's [Burgers]" world.

In addition to that, I knew that we needed somebody to come in every week and change the dynamic and keep the audience guessing. Then I thought that's what will keep the show fresh. We cast a wide net. The first person we went to, because we felt like she was the perfect match for the song, was, of course, Sara Bareilles. She wrote this incredible song called "Weirdos Make Great Superheroes." It was sort of a test run, but it was such a brilliant slam dunk that it put us all at ease and allowed us to recognize, "OK, this could actually work."

You work a lot in animation. Your credits include the Frozen, Ice Age and Angry Birds Movie franchises, among other titles. What is your attraction to that genre?

I'm attracted to anything that allows for as broad of an audience as possible to enjoy it. The movies that I love the most are movies that I grew up with. Movies that I experienced at 7 or 5 and now watch at 39 and still get such joy and satisfaction out of it. I love a good R-rated film, too, and I love to do them. There is something compelling to me about the broader appeal of those things that really allow for people of all ages to enjoy them, and I think animation, for whatever reason, is part of that tradition. It's got a timelessness, in many cases to it, and an opportunity to transcend any demographic.

You do come from a theater and Broadway background. Lately, you've been really busy with film and TV projects, as well as your YouTube series, "Reunited Apart." Do you ever miss the stage?

Every day, every day. I'd been flirting with doing something with my buddy, Andrew Rannells. We were, sort of like, legitimately looking at, and my prayer is that there is a stage to go back to in 2021, because I know we very much would like to have that opportunity.

Everyone's having a hard time right now with the pandemic, particularly the Broadway world. Have you had difficulty either enjoying your own show or just having a good time in general during this time of quarantine, nationwide protests and civil unrest? Are you able to enjoy the things you're creating?

No, but I'm a glutton for punishment. I genuinely have had a very difficult time enjoying much right now because it's so damn hard. There's so much sadness. There's this virus keeping everyone at home. There's this unbelievable recognition of inequality on the streets. There's so little about 2020 that's been worthy of smiles or worthy of joy. So the joy that I get is from being able to hear others take joy from what I can give. That's where I find my joy.

There is not a moment where I watch "Central Park" and I'm not absolutely floating. But I'm also watching it in critical of myself or critical of things that we could have done better. With that, and with my own neuroses put aside, the real blessing, the real joy, the real sense of fulfillment that I'm getting now is by hearing that it's bringing exactly what it was intended to those who have seen it.

If 2020 were a musical, what would it sound like?

Oh man, probably like the intro to Jaws [Laughs]. Or like the entire soundtrack to Mad Max: Fury Road or Blade Runner [Laughs]. I don't know. Find the most dystopian movie possible and fill in the blank.

The one silver lining that I've heard over and over about this difficult time in our lives is that it will produce great art. Out of the struggles we're all going through as a global community, we will eventually get some amazing art. Do you think that's a possibility?

I think it's a probability. If history has shown us anything in the art community, it's that some of the greatest pieces of art, some of the greatest moments that we have all celebrated in a movie theater or otherwise have been during very difficult times. You look at some of the iconic films, like Casablanca, like The Wizard Of Oz, that come out of these moments like the Second World War, the Great Depression. You look at movies like The Godfather that come out of moments like Vietnam. You look at these tremendous movies that come out of a time when the world seems backed into a corner.

It's a cliche at this point, but Shakespeare wrote some of his greatest plays during the plague. That's telling. That speaks to the potential of all of us, and I see that in movies, I see it in TV, but I especially see it in music. Some of the most powerful songs that I have always found to be some of the most influential in my life are songs that came out of the civil unrest of the 1960s. I see this as a similar opportunity all around.

You've been very vocal on social media about the heavy issues happening in our country right now, with regard to the nationwide protests, racial injustice, civil unrest. Do you consider yourself an ally? What does being a good ally mean to you?

Do I consider myself a good ally? I think you would have to ask others if they consider me a good ally because I feel so weird answering that question. I can tell you that my intention has always [been] to be an ally to everyone who needs it. I say this as someone who grew up hearing about the consequences of not having allies, of not having those who can defend you during times of great need.

My grandparents both lost their entire families during the Holocaust, and the message that they gave me was, "Never forget." But it wasn't a message that ever felt to me like a message specific about Jews. It wasn't a message that ever felt like a message specific to one faith. It was a message about those who need us at times of great need. Those who are looked at as "the other," those who are looking down upon, those who are treated differently. My entire life has been, "Why should anybody be entitled to less than I am?" Because that's what I grew up with. That was the guiding philosophy of the life or death message that my grandparents gave me.

So do I see myself as an ally? I sure damn hope so. Could I do more? Absolutely. I think we could all do more. I think we're learning that right now. I think this is a great reminder and an opportunity, and one of the silver linings of 2020, that great can come out of dark. That we can evolve, we can fight back. We can come together and do more. We can listen more, we can learn more, and I hope to never stop learning. I hope to never stop making mistakes, so that I can be better for that.

Yes, I look at myself as an ally, but I look at myself as an ally who still has a long way to go.

Speaking of learning how to be a better ally, what have you learned so far in the last few months? What have you taken away from everything that you've been doing and everyone you've been talking to lately?

Man, I don't think the messages that I've learned can be put into one interview over a phone call, but I can give you a couple of highlights. I've learned there's so much I don't know. There's so much I don't know about the Black experience. There's so much I don't know about walking down the street and being judged in a way that could be life or death based on the color of your skin. There are so many things that I didn't know about the breadth of pain that so many people in my orbit and beyond have not only been feeling over the last few weeks, but have felt over the last however many years. And we're not talking about 10, 20 [years]—we're talking about over 100 [years].

I think that is the problem. Sometimes it's hard to experience things like the first Black president being elected and not think, "Man, we've really made changes, we've really done so much great. The world has changed." Then to see that not only has the world regressed, but there's so much accounting that still hasn't happened. There's so much accountability that still hasn't taken place, and there's so much wrong that is still being experienced by those who have felt wronged their entire lives.

There's been a lot that I've learned over the past three weeks, and specifically what I learned in a good way is that there are a lot of like-minded people who have had enough. My prayer for 2020 is that this isn't a moment—it's a movement. I hope that we can grow. I hope, as a parent, that I can teach, that I can give my kids a future that they not only deserve and that anyone deserves a future where equality is just a given. [Where] it's not something to even remotely consider the necessity of a march for, which, again, seems batsh*t crazy in the year 2020 that we have to be marching for that still, at this moment, with all we know and with what we've been through.

But man, racism is f*cking real. It's as real as the flower pot in front of me, it's as real as the phone that I'm on. And if we can't start recognizing the reality of it, then we can't change. That, to me, has given me the kernel of hope that I have. I think the band-aid's been ripped off. I think if all of us could stare at the wound long enough, we can start to heal.

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