Bruce Hornsby

Bruce Hornsby

Photo: Sarah Walor

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Bruce Hornsby Talks New Album 'Non-Secure Connection,' Working With Spike Lee And His Ongoing Support Of Civil Rights In His Music

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The GRAMMY-winning singer-songwriter tells GRAMMY.com about how his work with the revered filmmaker and his longtime affirmation of civil rights inform his latest album
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Aug 15, 2020 - 2:19 pm

Bruce Hornsby is constantly on the search for new sounds to explore and fresh ways to express his thoughts. In 1986, the GRAMMY-winning singer-songwriter set the tone on The Way It Is, his multiplatinum hit debut album with his original band, Bruce Hornsby And The Range. (The album ultimately helped him and the group score the Best New Artist win at the 1987 GRAMMYs.) He later made an impact during a stint on keyboards with The Grateful Dead and dabbling in a variety of genres on his albums, including ventures into folk, jazz, bluegrass and even classical music.

"It's just a byproduct of a constant search for inspiration, a constant search for the new, a constant search for growing and evolving and improving your craft and your creativity over a long career period," Hornsby says of his wide-spanning musical projects in a recent phone interview with GRAMMY.com. "And so, I'm just intellectually, musically curious or musically, intellectually curious ... I'm doing this for people who are interested in a little bit of musical adventure."

His latest albums—2019's Absolute Zero and the newly released Non-Secure Connection—find him exploring yet another genre: film scores. Thanks to his work on music for multiple Spike Lee films, including 2018's BlacKkKlansman, Hornsby realized he could turn a film score cue into a song. He uses piano as well as instruments like the electric sitar and Chamberlin to create atmospheric, cinematic songs. 

"I think a filmmaker's telling the story, using music to augment the emotional quality of the film, and I'm doing the same thing here," he says.

Released Friday (Aug. 14), Non-Secure Connection features a wide array of guest artists and musicians who further enhance the songs: The Shins singer James Mercer, singer and poet Jamila Woods, Living Colour guitarist Vernon Reid and Bon Iver leader Justin Vernon. Album standout "Anything Can Happen" features the late Leon Russell, who co-wrote the track and appears on it courtesy of a demo that he and Hornsby recorded together more than 25 years ago. 

Lyrically, Hornsby has plenty to say on Non-Secure Connection. He muses on topics such as computer hackers, mall salesmen and the "Darwinian" aspects of AAU basketball. A longtime, ardent supporter of civil rights—his 1986 hit song, "The Way It Is," references the civil rights movement of the '60s—the singer continues to address the social issues of the time across the album. 

"Nina Simone said it best: 'It's the artist's job to reference the time in which we live.' And it's a bit like folk music. Lots of folk music has reflected through the years the world in which those writers wrote. And so, this is me doing my version of taking Nina Simone's charge and running with it," he says.

GRAMMY.com caught up with Bruce Hornsby to discuss his latest album, Non-Secure Connection, his longtime affirmation of civil rights in his music and how working with Spike Lee inspired a new sonic direction.

Songs such as "Bright Star Cast" and "Non-Secure Connection" feel very timely, with lyrics about civil rights and connections with each other.

Certainly. It's all of a sudden timely again, not that it's never not timely. The problems of American racism are always evident; you don't have to look very closely to find them. But certainly, the George Floyd tragedy has galvanized the scene, galvanized anyone who was at all sympathetic to the race issue and Blackness in America.

It's sort of serendipitous … that I wrote this song "Bright Star Cast," which is an attempt at a civil rights anthem. But it should be no small surprise because my career started with a song about racism: "The Way It Is." And this will be now the seventh song I've written that deals in some way with the race issue in our country.

And you mentioned "Non-Secure Connection," which is a song about a hacker, and that's, of course, very much sort of au courant in the current zeitgeist.

Nina Simone said it best: "It's the artist's job to reference the time in which we live." And it's a bit like folk music. Lots of folk music has reflected through the years the world in which those writers wrote. And so, this is me doing my version of taking Nina Simone's charge and running with it.

Read: 'Black Gold' At 50: How Nina Simone Refracted The Black Experience Through Reinterpreted Songs

When it comes to singing about racial equality, do you feel there's a constant search for finding the right words to express your feelings about it?

Well, there's a constant search to find the right words to express really anything. If you're trying to do something of some worth, then that's not easy. I think in everything I write, it's difficult to find the best words, and I struggle with it, just like any songwriter who's serious about it probably would and probably should. But I can make also this statement about what's happening now to me. The George Floyd tragedy is a Bull Connor moment in our history, a second Bull Connor moment. 

How so?

In 1964, during the heyday of the civil rights movement, especially in the South, there was a protest going on in Birmingham, Ala., and the police chief in Birmingham, named Bull Connor, brought out his force and turned hoses on the protestors. It was just a horrific scene, and someone captured this on film … As soon as they could, they showed [this film] on the national news ...

And so, this film of this terrible local response to a civil rights protest, again, it shocked the country when they saw this … that just made the country aware of what was going on, and they previously had not been. And several months later, [President Lyndon B. Johnson] and the Congress passed the Civil Rights Act Of 1964. And I think a large part of what enabled them to do this is that footage from Bull Connor's police-hosing moment.

And so, this is a Bull Connor moment right now, because the video of that terrible, basically murder of George Lloyd—that went viral in a way that they couldn't think of in '64, obviously, [without] the internet. It went around the world and inspired the same response; that's why I call this a Bull Connor moment.

And hopefully, it will have the same effect. I mean, that was a major law passed, the Civil Rights Act Of 1964. I refer to it in my song, "The Way It Is": "They passed a law in '64 to give those who ain't got a little more." 

You wrote the song "Sh*t's Crazy Out Here" about AAU basketball. Can you explain that connection?

If you're a serious basketball aspirant as a child, as a young hopeful, and you have a very solid to great talent, you're probably going to be playing in what's called grassroots basketball, summer basketball, also known as AAU basketball. AAU stands for the Amateur Athletic Union. My son, Keith, went through that crucible from age 10 to 18. This song comes from some of his experiences that he would tell me about. 

"Sh*t's Crazy Out Here" is a song about that dysphoria that occurs in this Darwinian world of summer AAU basketball, but it's also a metaphor for our crazy world now, and I feel strongly about that. But also, what may be of interest to some regarding this song is that to me, it's an odd musical juxtaposition of modern classical meets modern pop. I describe this song as Arnold Schoenberg and Elliot Carter meet The Beatles at the Boo Williams Sportsplex, which is the AAU basketball mecca of our area here in Hampton, Va.

Half of the songs on Non-Secure Connection were originally crafted while you were working on film scores for Spike Lee. What was it like getting exposed to his unique perspective and working with a different kind of music?

Well, I've been being exposed to Spike's unique perspectives for 28 years. We met in 1992 … The first time I worked with Spike, he directed a video for me for a song of mine off my fourth record called Harbor Lights, and the song is called "Talk Of The Town." It was actually one of those seven songs about race that I was previously referring to, and it's about the first interracial romance in my town and all the reaction to that. I've been working with him since '92.

Those five songs to which you're referring, they started off as film cues, as instrumental music, part of my score for various Spike movies in the last decade. I started doing this on my last record, Absolute Zero, and I've continued to do that. It was a new way of writing songs for me and took me to a different, more cinematic place for obvious reasons. I feel these two records, Absolute Zero and Non-Secure Connection, have that connection, that at least half of the songs come from that [film] world, hence the cinematic quality ...

[Spike is] an unswerving artiste, and he will go the extra length to get what he wants. That's always inspiring, and it makes me not want to settle in my own work. He has more stamina than two people in their 60s. He can just go and go all day, every day, from 5:00 in the morning to midnight—and then do it again, like I say, every day. He's a very inspiring person and just a great, longtime friend.

Film music is pretty conducive to storytelling. 

I think that's true. Since I tend to be a storyteller in song, I'm not much of a "woe is me" writer, if you understand what I'm saying. I'm not much into the confessional writing. I love a lot of people who've done that, but they would mine that area a lot better than I would. I've tended to be more of a storyteller, or I guess a commentator, on the current scene. So yes, I think a filmmaker's telling the story, using music to augment the emotional quality of the film, and I'm doing the same thing here.

Read: 'Score': Soundtracks take us on an emotional ride

You invited a wide spectrum of guest musicians to play on the album, including Jamila Woods and Vernon Reid on "Bright Star Cast." How did you get connected with them for that song?

I wanted a woman to sing with me on "Bright Star Cast," and our great friend from Jagjaguwar, Eric Davis, hooked us up with one of their artists named Jamila Woods.

I wasn't familiar with Jamila, but I went and listened to her music and thought, "Wow, I love it. It's a beautiful and great sound." She's also a wonderful poet … She added so much to that track, as did Vernon Reid. 

That track was a Spike Lee cue originally for a movie called Da Sweet Blood Of Jesus from 2014; Vernon played on the film version of that track. So I twisted and turned his performance around just a little bit to fit what we were doing, the song that I created on top of that piece of instrumental music and the film music. I've loved [Vernon] for years, a longtime friend and a great musician.

What did it mean to be able to pay tribute to your friend, Leon Russell, on "Anything Can Happen"? 

Leon Russell was one of the two pianists that I heard when I was younger that made me want to play the piano. The first was Elton John. The second was Leon; he was one of my early heroes.

I met him years later after we had our career going fairly solidly. I met him at The Palomino Club in the San Fernando Valley, L.A., when I lived out in that area in California. We ended up getting together for a Rolling Stone photoshoot that they asked us to be a part of. I asked him if he wanted to try to get back into the crazy music game, and he called me.

About four months later—this is 1988—he called and said, "Well, I'd like to try it if you can help me." I was able to get him a record deal at Virgin Records in 1990. In 1991, we made the record gradually over the course of that year, and it came out in '92. I think the first song that we wrote together was sparked by him asking me to write him a Barry White track.

I tried my best to effect a Barry White feeling on a musical track. Then I picked some words that he'd written for him out of this notebook that he had full of lyrics. He sang it incredibly well, and that was the title song of that record, "Anything Can Happen." 

In the end, I loved the demo we cut. This happens so often, that the demo is not really made much better, or it's actually made worse in the end, by polishing it too much. I always felt that the record we made was not as good as it could have been. I've always wanted to recut the song; this was my time to do it. We sampled a little bit of Leon from the original demo and flew it into the record. He's sort of a ghost behind me in the first part of the song. Then he comes in full force to sing harmonies with me at the end.

He passed about three or four years ago, and I spoke at his memorial service in Tulsa, Okla. Leon meant a lot to me, and we'd become good friends for many years. I guess it is truly a tribute to my old-hero-turned-friend.

Throughout your career, you've written albums in a variety of styles and have said that you're no trend-follower. Why do you feel it's still important to keep exploring in music even after 30-plus years?

I'd say it's not really about what's important. It's just a byproduct of a constant search for inspiration, a constant search for the new, a constant search for growing and evolving and improving your craft and your creativity over a long career period. And so, I guess I'm just intellectually, musically curious or musically, intellectually curious. And I'll deal with a broad range, stylistically, of music—from the most down-in-the-dirt, old-time folk and traditional music to the most avant-garde, atonal, modern classical music.

All of that is all that is used in my records. And some people really hate that, but I guess I'm not playing for that ... I'm not doing this for them. I'm doing this for people who are interested in a little bit of musical adventure. It's just the byproduct of my curiosity and, I guess you could say, insatiable search for new inspiration.

Terence Blanchard On The Music Behind 'Da 5 Bloods,' Working With Spike Lee And The Lasting Impact Of Marvin Gaye

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G.E. Smith & LeRoy Bell

G.E. Smith (L) and LeRoy Bell (R)

Photo: John Peden

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G.E. Smith & LeRoy Bell Talk New Politically Charged Album 'Stony Hill': "It Speaks To This Present Time"

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GRAMMY.com caught up with the music veterans to talk about how their timely debut album offers a nonpartisan, universal perspective on today's societal issues and how their rich individual careers inform their newly formed duo
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Aug 24, 2020 - 4:00 am

Even before this challenging year, singer-songwriter LeRoy Bell was getting tired of the negative grind of daily news. He couldn't understand how the United States allowed migrant children to be separated from their families.

His frustration spawned the song "America," which appears on Stony Hill, his new debut collaborative album with veteran guitarist G.E. Smith, out Friday (Aug. 28). In the song, Bell sings, "God only knows how I miss those days / She only knows how I miss the way we were." 

"I just thought that we would be so much farther along as a nation, as a country," Bell tells GRAMMY.com during a recent interview. "And in the last couple of years, it just seemed like it was going to hell in a handbasket. I just wanted to write a song, and it was a healing process for me, and I just thought that a lot of other people can relate to it."

After Bell showed the song to Smith, the two started working on what would amount to a politically charged album full of like-minded songs. Stony Hill is a contemplative and honest look at where American democracy stands today. Rather than angrily pointing fingers, the duo instead offers constructive criticism in a nonpartisan way aimed at finding a more perfect union.

Smith and Bell use the wisdom and experiences they've gained through their long and wide-ranging careers in music to inform Stony Hill.

Best known as the former ponytailed musical director for "Saturday Night Live," Smith is a one-time member of Hall & Oates and a sideman to musicians such as David Bowie, Mick Jagger and Tina Turner. 

Bell has written hit songs for a variety of artists, including Elton John, Jennifer Lopez, Teddy Pendergrass and The Three Degrees. A finalist for "The X Factor" in 2011, Bell has also made a name for himself via his work as a solo artist and with his former soul duo, Bell and James, alongside Casey James. 

For Smith and Bell, their newly formed duo welcomes a pairing that's long been in the works.

"I'd been looking for a great singer for 30 years," Smith says. "And I've been looking for just the right voice. And [my wife] said to me, 'Hey, listen to this guy. This is the voice.' And I heard it. I said, 'Yep, that's him.'"

GRAMMY.com caught up with G.E. Smith & LeRoy Bell to talk about how their timely debut album, Stony Hill, offers a nonpartisan, universal perspective on today's societal issues and how their rich individual careers inform their latest project.

The songs on your new album, Stony Hill, feel like they were written for this moment in time.

Smith: Well, we recorded the record in 2019. We had it finished up by the early fall and then did the postproduction. And it just happened that a lot of the songs that LeRoy had written are very relevant to what's going on now; songs like "America," "Under These Skies," "Let The Sunshine In." It just speaks to this present time as things worked out.

Bell: I don't think this happened overnight, and so a situation we're finding ourselves in, it's not like I predicted anything and saw it coming. I think it was just a feeling that was going on in the last couple of years, the way things were turning. But I had no idea that it was going to end up like it is now and we'd be in this position with the pandemic and the civil unrest that we have at this point. But I think some of the signs were there.

What's the story behind the album's title, Stony Hill?

Smith: We were looking for a band name; there [have] been so many bands at this point, it's really hard to come up with a name. [My family and I] happen to live on Stony Hill Road. And so there that was, and then that image of pushing the rock up the hill just fit right in. That seems like what we're all doing now.

While writing the album, you made a point to make songs such as "America" nonpartisan and from a more universal place. Why was that important?

Bell: I think politics go back and forth, and, depending on who's in power, people use politics as a tool to control other people. And that's why I used those lyrics that way. I think you can interpret it how you want, but I think it speaks to the times that we have right now. But I think it's also a political stigma that can speak to any time, because a lot of it is general, although some of it is specific to this time.

What was the inspiration behind "America"?

Bell: I was kind of down and watching too much news on TV, which I finally just got rid of because it was just messing with my emotions. I saw this one thing where they were separating kids from their parents and putting kids in cages, and I just kind of balled up. This is not where I thought we would be in 2019. I just thought that we would be so much farther along as a nation, as a country. And in the last couple of years, it just seemed like it was going to hell in a handbasket. I just wanted to write a song, and it was a healing process for me, and I just thought that a lot of other people can relate to it.

"Black Is The Color" is a rocking modern take on the traditional folk ballad. Why did it feel like a good time to revisit the song?

Smith: I've always loved that song. I've been playing that song for 40 years at least. And most of the versions that you hear of that song are slow and beautiful. Nina Simone is the famous one that comes to mind. But in the early '60s, a lot of what they called folk artists—Joan Baez, people like that—everybody was doing that song, and everybody did it slow. But I'm kind of a rocker, bar band, guitar-player guy, so I wanted to rock it up. I love the lyrics and I really thought I'd fit in with the rest of the material that we were doing. I've always really enjoyed rearranging traditional songs like that, taking a more modern approach to them, because the lyrics are great in a lot of that traditional stuff. The stories are universal. The stories are timeless.

"Under the Skies" talks about the hopes and fears people have in this country. There's a lyric about the longing for finding the way home. Why was that an appealing metaphor?

Bell: A metaphor to finding the way home to peace and love—that's what I mean by that. Finding a way back home to reconciliation, to getting along, to where we're supposed to be as humans with each other. Like we just got so far off-track of where we should be. I think this is … just about as far away from where we should be that I can remember [in my life].

Read: Bruce Hornsby Talks New Album 'Non-Secure Connection,' Working With Spike Lee And His Ongoing Support Of Civil Rights In His Music

How did the two of you originally meet?

Smith: Taylor Barton, my wife, was listening to LeRoy. I think she found him on Spotify, or one of those places, and I'd been looking for a great singer for 30 years. And I've been looking for just the right voice. And she said to me, "Hey, listen to this guy. This is the voice." And I heard it. I said, "Yep, that's him." 

So Taylor got a hold of LeRoy, and he lives in Seattle. We're on the extreme East Coast, out on Long Island [in New York], and we invited him out January of 2019. And he came and we sat down with our guitars and started playing, and we just had a great time. He had recently written "America." He showed it to me, and within two days, we were in the studio.

Did it feel like a good pairing?

Bell: We're fans of a lot of the same music—that would be old-school music. We played in a lot of different bands that had a lot in common, and we were close to the same age and grew up in the same era. Once we started playing together, we just hit it off. It just felt very comfortable.

Smith: You never know, when you get together with people, everybody can be really talented, but it doesn't always click. Thankfully, this time it did. We got along right away, musically, because, as LeRoy said, we had grown up listening to the same records at the same time— we were [just] in different rooms. You've got to be able to like the people and hang out with them and spend time with them. So that all was very easy and comfortable right away—thankfully.

Each of you has histories of collaborating with others. How have these lessons and experiences carried over to this project?

Bell: I think when you've been collaborating with other people, you learn to listen and pay attention to what that other person has. Music is cool, but you don't want to just play it by yourself all the time; you want to be able to enjoy playing with other people. And so, collaborating with somebody else that's giving you ideas and cool things to work off of is a joy, especially if you get along personally. It's fun. It's creative.

Smith: You don't dismiss your own ego, but you've got to put your own ego aside a little bit and work with the artist, the person that day you're supporting. As a guitar player, sideman, you work with them and you try to make the idea that they have shine. You try to make it good. So LeRoy comes with these songs and then I like the songs, and then I could hear right away what I want it to sound like; it was just a great experience to be able to do it. We're looking forward to recording the next album.

Are you planning to tour together whenever things get back to normal after the pandemic?

Bell: Yeah. We were already planning on touring and then the COVID-19 [pandemic] hit, and then that just pulled the rug out from under us. But we would love to get out there and get to the people and bring them music. There's nothing better than playing in front of live audiences. 

Smith: In the middle of March, when this COVID thing really took off, we were supposed to go to South By Southwest [SXSW], play two or three shows while we were there, introduce the band and the recording. They were going to release "America" right there. But of course, that got canceled, along with everything else.

On "America," you talk about not standing idly by. Have you been involved in the community beyond music?

Bell: Not so much. My main way of being involved is through my music. I'm not out there in the streets, physically, but I try to lend my voice and my time to the causes. Somebody needs me to be there, phone lines or vocally or any way that I can that way with my support; I try to do that. But physically, as far as being out in the streets, I don't really do that. Mainly, it's just through my music and what I can bring that way.

Smith: For me, I've never been political at all. It never seemed to make much difference to me, as a musician, who was president or governor or anything. It was the same for me when Reagan was president or when Clinton was president or Obama. 

But Trump, he came along and just ... To me, he's very wrong on so many things. I hate the way that he's encouraged the white nationalist people. And he seems to thrive on this chaos; he likes it. He thinks it makes him look good to his people, I guess. I've never voted in my life, but I'll tell you what. I'm registered now. And I'm going to vote in November. I'm not going to vote for Trump—you know that.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Fantastic Negrito On How His New Album, 'Have You Lost Your Mind Yet?', Is A Timely Commentary On American Society

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Devon Allman (L) and Duane Betts (R) of The Allman Betts Band

Devon Allman (L) and Duane Betts (R) of The Allman Betts Band

 

Photo: Kaelan Barowsky

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VIDEO PREMIERE: The Allman Betts Band Ride The Desert Sun In "Pale Horse Rider," Talk New Album 'Bless Your Heart'

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The group's founders, Devon Allman and Duane Betts, both sons of members of The Allman Brothers Band, tell GRAMMY.com how their latest double album helps cement their own identity while also honoring their past
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Aug 6, 2020 - 7:00 am

While his father, the late Gregg Allman, made an unmistakable impact on his musical growth, Devon Allman recognizes that he can't just coast off his famous last name or his family legacy via The Allman Brothers Band.

When Devon formed The Allman Betts Band several years ago with Duane Betts, son of Allman Brothers Band member Dickey Betts, and a lineup also featuring Berry Oakley Jr., son of original Allman Brothers Band bassist Berry Oakley, it certainly would have been easy to rely heavily on their musical heritage. 

While there are definite shades of the past in their sound, The Allman Betts Band seek to create their own identity. It's evident on their 2019 debut album, Down To The River, and even more so on their latest double album, Bless Your Heart, which is out Aug. 28.

"I don't think anyone can prepare you for the path that you're going to go on. Only your work ethic can prepare you," Devon tells GRAMMY.com. "So at the end of the day, I think we have our own story to tell, and think that story is right there on Bless Your Heart."

Unlike their debut, which marked the first time the group had played and recorded together, Bless Your Heart showcases a much more seasoned band—thanks to a relentlessly busy touring schedule last year. 

"If the debut album was like opening your eyes and waking up, then this record is like sitting up on the side of the bed, standing up [and] stretching out," Devon says of Bless Your Heart. "It's the next phase of the evolution of our conglomerate."

Ahead of the new LP's release this month, the band unveils the music video for album opener "Pale Horse Rider." Filmed at the iconic Joshua Tree National Park, the stunning visual matches the cinematic feel of the song.

GRAMMY.com recently caught up with Devon Allman and Duane Betts to talk about how they're forging a new path as The Allman Betts Band and how their latest album cements their own identity while also honoring their past.

"Pale Horse Rider" has a great cinematic feel. What was the inspiration for writing that song?

Devon Allman: It was really born out of kind of a descending, trippy guitar line of Duane's. And when we started to flesh it out, I think it was just kind of a universal theme having to do with "the man" breaking down this guy and him feeling like the world was out to get him, which I'm sure we can all relate to at some point or another in our lives.

Once the song kind of revealed itself to be that story, it really wrote itself. So it wasn't any kind of eureka moment inspiration. It was just three guys writing songs and sketching out some figures that came to a really cool conclusion.

What was it like filming the video for the song in the desert?

Devon Allman: It was hot. It was a lot of fun. We got to play cowboys for a couple days straight there, on horses and playing guitars out in the desert. Joshua Tree National Park is such a beautiful setting … It's a very photogenic setting, so it was a pleasure.

Duane Betts: It was a long day, but I'm really happy that we did it. And Joshua Tree is a really amazing place, with all the history with Graham Parsons, who's one of my favorite writers. He just has impeccable style, and I loved those records he did. We couldn't have picked a better place to do it. 

How have the past few months influenced your opinion of this collection of songs featured on Bless Your Heart?

Devon Allman: I'm really proud of the band for its growth, for being able to stretch out and really believe in itself and its abilities. And I don't think that the time off has deepened my love affair with our growth. I'm still just as proud of the record as I was when we left the studio. Before it was even mixed, I knew that we had something that was the next step for us as a unit, as a creative force. If the debut album was like opening your eyes and waking up, then this record is like sitting up on the side of the bed, standing up [and] stretching out. It's the next phase of the evolution of our conglomerate. 

Duane Betts: You don't take anything for granted because you see how quickly things can change … Music is supposed to kind of take you to a different place. And if it makes people feel good and does that, then that's part of what we would hope for and what we're trying to accomplish. So now more than ever, people need that medicine.

When you first joined forces as a band, what convinced you that it was a worthwhile endeavor?

Devon Allman: We formed the band out of our friendship, really. We had always kind of talked about the concept of us working together. But what really sent it over the edge was [when] we sat down and tried to write some songs together to see if we were compatible songwriting partners. And when we wrote the first couple tunes of the first record, we were like, "Wow, OK. We really are a pretty good songwriting team. It's pretty effortless, so let's see if we can write more songs."

And then we had enough to make a record. And we said, "Man, this would make a record that we could both be proud of." So it was a few steps into the process, each step solidifying this vibe that we would be a good team.

Duane Betts: I knew we had good ideas, and we had a great group of guys and musicians. I knew it was a worthwhile endeavor. I just didn't know exactly what we were going to create. And just from the first record to this record, I think that it's definitely a worthwhile endeavor. I think that the proof is in the pudding. 

Watch: Gregg Allman recalls joining the Allman Brothers Band

The band's been on a pretty prolific pace of writing songs. What did it mean to record a double album so soon after your debut record?

Devon Allman: I think it means that we were more comfortable. We trusted the process. We trusted our chemistry as writing partners. We trusted the band to bring the songs to life. Having a couple hundred shows under our belt, it just felt right to write as much as we could. And I think there might've been 20 or 25 songs in the works, and we trimmed them down to 13—lucky No. 13. And it felt like those 13 [songs] were the most cohesive that could live in the same space together and complement each other and make one pretty direct story that had focus.

Duane Betts: We were just really grateful to be able to get it all in the can, to get it all completed before the pandemic really took hold and shut everything down.

When the band recorded its debut, it marked the first time when everyone in the group played together. But on the new one, the band is a lot more seasoned thanks to your heavy touring schedule in 2019. What did it mean to be able to stretch your sound even further and try new things thanks to that experience?

Devon Allman: Just again, having the trust in the unit. Having been on tour that long, we know what everybody brings to the table. 

Duane Betts: I think that spirit is kind of in us inherently … I think that some of the most unique stuff that we have to offer is a song like "Pale Horse Rider." It's some of the best, most innovative work that I think Devon and I have done together. It's not always about being pure to that old sound. It's about just doing what feels right in the moment. And we love a lot of music, so there's a lot of influences to pull from besides that, besides The Allman Brothers Band.

What were some of your favorite new things that you tried on the record?

Devon Allman: I think that there are a couple songs that were maybe a little outside of our wheelhouse. It was fun to sing in kind of more of a low baritone, almost [like a] Johnny Cash vibe, for the song "Much Obliged." It was fun to play bass on the track "The Doctor's Daughter," where [bassist and singer] Berry Oakley went over to keyboards, played piano and sang that track. So obviously when he switches over to piano, somebody has to play bass, and I was happy to play bass on that track. So some little maneuvers like that are just fun to keep the spirit of the band elastic and … showing a different face.

Stoll Vaughan, with whom you collaborated on your debut album, wrote the semi-autobiographical song, "Magnolia Road." What was it like having your life story told by him?

Devon Allman: There's certainly a lot to our personal stories to really sum up in four lines. But I think that Stoll Vaughn did a really great job of capturing at least the essence of who we are and where we've been, and he did a really concise way of doing that inside of one song.

Devon has described the album as a band having a love affair with being a band. Why do you think that's important in today's music world?

Devon Allman: I think anyone that does something should do it with love, whether they're a chef in a restaurant or an architect building a new place for people to thrive and work or live. I think you get much better results if you love what you do. So at the end of the day, I think you come out of the gate in a brand-new band when you're seasoned veterans and you're kind of feeling your way and seeing who's going to do what and what the roles are and what the colors and tones and textures are of each person.

And I think once you get comfortable knowing a lay of the land, that's where you can really thrive. And I think that's where we're at in this band. And I think that we're having a love affair with being in a band together … I hope when people hear this record, they really hear a band that's in love with being in a band with each other.

There's a lot of sonic diversity on the album. You don't really know what's going to come next.

Devon Allman: I like that aspect. I think it's good to take people on a journey. Some of my most favorite films are the ones that really take you for a ride and keep you guessing, where you're not figuring out the end 20 minutes in. So I really think that diversity works for us, and we tip our hat to our heroes. Like The Rolling Stones could play blues, they could play something country-tinged, they could play something reggae-tinged. And I think it's important to be able to stretch out and do some things that are maybe not cookie-cutter experiences.

Duane Betts: There's just kind of a wider spectrum of influences, and, on the whole level, it's just kind of a wider palette.

The Allman Betts Band

The Allman Betts Band | Photo: Kaelan Barowsky

I imagine your fathers, who performed together in The Allman Brothers Band, played a vital role in your musical growth. How does having a musician father prepare you for fronting your own band?

Duane Betts: I think a lot of that stuff you learn just by watching people, by observing your environment … I started watching my father [Dickey Betts] front his bands and the dynamics he had with his band members.

You're kind of leading just by expressing what you're hearing to the band, and then the band is there to execute that vision. Being a band leader, per se, like on tour, is a different kind of thing. I definitely learned a lot from watching him on- and off-stage.

There was always music playing [growing up]. I think there were guitars around, and there was kind of a junior-size guitar or ukulele or something around. And I picked it up when I was really young, and it kind of seemed really difficult to me. I decided I didn't want to play guitar, in other words. We went to a warehouse where his solo band was rehearsing at that time. And there were kind of some spare drums, and he kind of made a makeshift drum kit. And I started playing drums from that set that he put together, probably around the age of 5 or 6.

By the age of 13, I would say, I switched to guitar. He was always around, just showing me fundamental stuff in guitar playing, like Chuck Berry licks and 12-bar blues and just stuff like that to get me started.

He was there every step of the way. He was there to kind of guide me, but I didn't really want to take too much advice from him, [me] being a teenager. I kind of wanted to learn stuff on my own, which is kind of a joke to this day that we have with each other.

Devon Allman: I really found music on my own. I had punk rock bands in the garage at age 15. But I think my dad and I had some of the same favorite singers in common, like Bobby Bland and Ray Charles.

I don't think anyone can prepare you for the path that you're going to go on. Only your work ethic can prepare you. So at the end of the day, I think we have our own story to tell, and think that story is right there on Bless Your Heart.

Allman Brothers Band: Lifetime Achievement Award Acceptance

How do you balance tradition and forging a new path?

Duane Betts: I think just by us making art and expressing our true selves, I think that is carrying on the legacy, because that's what they did … We are focused on forging a new path, and I think that this record is a pretty strong statement of that. When we play our dads' tunes, I would say we definitely hold that in high regard, and we try to play that with respect; we feel like we do a good job, and we don't take it for granted. We hold it in a special place.

Guitars have a similar importance in Allman Betts songs. Can you talk about the importance of guitars on your new album?

Duane Betts: It's a song record, but it's also a guitar record … Guitars are very important to our band. That's where we come from … It's in the family, you know?

I imagine everyone is eager to hit the road again whenever things get back to normal.

Duane Betts: Absolutely—as soon as the coast is clear and it's safe and responsible. We're actually doing a show in New Hampshire at a drive-in at the end of August, which is really cool. We're really looking forward to doing that. We're just really excited to put some new music out and make some new fans, and hopefully people dig it.

Devon, I've noticed you've also been doing some livestreams. What's it been like to do these virtual performances?

Devon Allman: It's definitely a different dynamic, but you roll with the punches and you have to connect with your audience in some manner. This [pandemic], if it lasts up to a year—I couldn't imagine not staying in contact with our fan base. So I'm grateful for any way we have to connect.

Warren Haynes Talks New Gov't Mule Doc, Writing With Gregg Allman & Growing Young

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Greta Van Fleet press photo

Greta Van Fleet

 

Photo: Alysse Gafkjen

 
News

Battle Tested: Greta Van Fleet's Jake And Sam Kiszka Talk Ambitious New Album, 'The Battle At Garden's Gate'

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GRAMMY-winning rockers Greta Van Fleet tell GRAMMY.com about how their time on the road and exposure to different ways of thinking led to their sonically and lyrically dynamic new album, 'The Battle At Garden's Gate'
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Apr 23, 2021 - 5:10 am

Greta Van Fleet is primed and ready for a battle. On "Age of Machine," off the band's latest album, The Battle at Garden's Gate, singer Josh Kiszka questions the domination social media, one societal machine, has on his generation, Gen Z: "Perfect child/Plugged in since the womb/Prophet of the dune/In this electric tomb," he sings.

"You have people, young men and young women, who are plugged into social media and into alternative forms of growing up and how you inter-personalize some of these things," his brother, Jake, tells GRAMMY.com during a recent interview.

"You make so many constructs, the social media telling a young person, 'You're not skinny enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough, you're not perfect.' And I think this song says, 'Yeah, you are.' It says that these things are machine-created constructs. That's not the reality; it's not truthful."

In the past few years, life on the road and a move to Nashville have made the band more aware of the wide world outside of their native Michigan. Being exposed to different ways of thinking and meeting new people gave them empathy for others less fortunate who struggle with inequality, hunger and poverty. It also made the band realize how alike we all are.

These themes, and more, are lyrically at the heart of The Battle at Garden's Gate.

"The stories are what translate most to the human soul," bass/keyboard player and fellow brother Sam says.

Adds Jake, "It is masked in hope and it's mastered with this kind of feeling that we, as a human species, can overcome these very great challenges."

Greta Van Fleet, which also features their friend Danny Wagner on drums, have come a long way since first performing in their small hometown of Frankenmuth, Michigan, nearly a decade ago. Following an unexpected surge in popularity thanks to their earlier, vintage-rock-infused releases, including their 2017 GRAMMY-winning double EP, From the Fires, as well as their 2018 debut album, Anthem of the Peaceful Army, they've since routinely sold out venues around the globe, performed on late-night shows such as "Saturday Night Live" and "The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon," and played international music festivals, including Coachella.

Building on that momentum, Battle at Garden's Gate, produced by Greg Kurstin (Paul McCartney, Foo Fighters and Adele), now sees Greta Van Fleet exploring a more cinematic and progressive sound while marking a vision fully realized for the band.

"I think this is the record that we always wanted to make even years and years ago, when we were still playing in the garage," Jake says.

GRAMMY.com caught up with Greta Van Fleet's Jake and Sam Kiszka recently to discuss their new album, The Battle at Garden's Gate, the importance of finding hope in songs, the effect of technology and social media on their generation, and embracing the Led Zeppelin comparisons.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Everything's screeched to a halt due to the COVID-19 pandemic. How have you kept busy over the past year?

Jake Kiszka: Well, we haven't. We've been bored off our asses … It's been kind of a double-edged sword because touring is such at the core of what we do; it's sort of the sole purpose of a group like [ours]. But I suppose on the other side of the blade, it's been interesting because we have been able to take a form of creativity and redirect it in another direction … We've been able to really shape and craft a lot of the visual aesthetics for what we're doing.

I think we also cursed ourselves because when we made the record, we went into it with this idea that we can do whatever we want. And whenever there was a question about how we are going to replicate that live, we said, "Don't worry about it. We'll figure that out later." So, I think it's perhaps the record that we made that shut down the world.

[The time off] lent us the ability for two more songs on the album. We pretty much had the record entirely recorded last summer and everything shut down. So, we started writing again—we started writing a new album, actually—and we came up with these two songs, "The Barbarians" and "Caravel" that … sounded so much like The Battle at Garden's Gate.

Many of the songs have a hopeful aspect to them. Why was it important to have that element?

Jake: It's tough to feel hopeful, especially in this day and age. I think that's something that's super important about the record. We didn't necessarily record it with the intention to be releasing it into a world like this, but it was very appropriate … [It's important] being able to deal with rapid industry growth and greed and being able to deal with gender norms and a lot of racial issues and a lot of things that our generation is going to have to solve in the very, very [near] future. It is masked in hope and it's mastered with this kind of feeling that we, as a human species, can overcome these very great challenges.

Sam Kiszka: Most people have chalked the album to be a very dark album, whereas actually, it's kind of the opposite. It's sort of a representation of the resilience of the human soul.

Why did The Battle at Garden's Gate feel like a fitting title for this collection?

Sam: I think that the whole idea of what humanity is, is fundamentally broken and we are just so fundamentally cursed as being humans in this world. There's always greed and there's always hate, and there's always some kind of misunderstanding that causes some kind of ridiculous wars and everything that can destroy humanity. That's what's outside of the gate, and in the theoretical world inside the gate is perfect mankind, right?

It's kind of like this Garden of Eden idea: It's all perfection within the confines of those four walls. [There are] so many metaphors that you can pull out of that. And that was our intention to build this world, to be able to tell these stories because the stories are what translates most to the human soul. You may not know somebody until you know their story, and that is a fundamentally understood thing.

I think the gate and everything outside the gate and everything within this world that we've started building exists only as a tool that we can use to show people what is happening in our world currently.

Jake: As this thing develops, it starts to reveal itself to a certain degree that we now understand more of what the story is we're trying to tell lyrically or instrumentally; we had a greater understanding of the personality of the album and it's a story. It pulls from the mythology. It involves very contemporary issues and biblical themes. The Battle at Garden's Gate just seemed like a perfect title.

While touring the past few years, the band got to meet a lot of different people and were exposed to different cultures. How were those experiences impactful?

Jake: They really … [informed us] of a lot of the alternative ways of thought and certainly many different philosophies throughout the world … It gave us a topic to discuss, it gave us something important to say … There's ... hope that you've been reformed of in these different cultures.

There's also this aspect of sadness that you see in the world. There's poverty and there's hunger, and there are so many different things … in terms of what represents [itself] on the album.

What's one specific moment on the road that really impacted you?

Sam: Hearing Dave Grohl talk about what music is and his interpretation of that, and Taylor Hawkins as well … Seeing those guys be so excited to play and so excited to be there and be so talkative and soulful. It was really invigorating to be on the road and have that kind of energy shooting around. So we have a profound respect for those guys, how they do what they do.

"Age of Machine" questions the role of technology in society. What was the inspiration for that one?

Sam: One of the main ones was futuristic work in literature and film. The whole idea that society gets to a place in time where the technology takes over men and it poses this very fundamental issue: Are men more intelligent than the machine? Or is it the other way around?

You can think of machine as the technological kind of fetters; let's call it your phone, social media, whatever that is, whatever is poisoning our society's minds. And then you have machine, which is this very archaic system that functions only because of the greed and the wealth of exploiting the Earth.

Jake: In the song, there's a lyric: "Plugged into the womb." You have people, young men and young women, who are plugged into social media and into alternative forms of growing up and how you inter-personalize some of these things. You make so many constructs, the social media telling a young person, "You're not skinny enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough, you're not perfect." And I think this song says, "Yeah, you are." It says that these things are machine-created constructs, that's not the reality. It's not truthful.

Greg Kurstin was instrumental in giving the band confidence to try new things. How did he help the band go in a different direction?

Jake: What Greg brought was age and wisdom to this process … He was there to guide us if we needed assistance. Another thing that he really taught us was problem-solving, musically. You come into a bridge and you're like, "We have three options." And Gregg can say, "I like them all, but this one in particular stands out to me because." And I think that was a big leg up for us and a big learning experience.

Sam: Yeah, it was a good book ending to quite a story.

Jake: I think this is the record that we always wanted to make even years and years ago, when we were still playing in the garage. We just didn't have the means to do it. Also, I don't really think we had the resume to make a record like this, something that is so aggressively large.

It feels [like] we had the opportunity to choose and do everything our own way. We made this record and, in our eyes, it's perfect. It's exactly molded to the verifications and the specifications, tailor-fit, kind of exactly what we want. Which I can't say for any of our other previous work; there's always been things that we kind of abandoned. As Da Vinci said, [you never really finished art, you just abandon it. But we sure as f**k finished it on The Garden's Gate. It only took a year and a half.

When the band released Anthem of the Peaceful Army in 2018, many compared you to classic rock bands like Led Zeppelin, some positively, some negatively. Did the not-so-flattering side of that give everyone thicker skin or a motivation to keep moving forward?

Sam: Yeah, there have been so many comparisons over so many years to so many bands, so many artists. I guess we've always been humbled with reference, honored by affiliation, always. It's an interesting thing because it is a very loud minority that doesn't seem to speak for the quiet majority.

This seems to be this abhorrence within the factions of society that are drawn to ignorant criticism, but that's just something that we'll never be a part of contributing to. And I suppose we're really sort of enlightened to the idea of evolution and the fact that you take one thing to ascend to another thing, to contribute to the future. Sometimes, you have to look back to go forward. We stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before. It's inspiring, really.

How has the move to Nashville changed your perception of being a band?

Sam: It was very interesting, especially in terms of where we came from, which was a very small town in Michigan. It's interesting to call somewhere new "home," and I think we were all very reluctant. I think we're all very pleased to be able to call Nashville home now, especially in terms of its history, what it offers musically. There are so many musical people around and you can certainly feel [it].

I suppose we're in the new side of Nashville, but you can certainly feel this energy boiling and bubbling and in this sort of bloodline, this lifeline of energy. There's certainly an interesting scene going on now in this time. There's so much influence, so much inspiration and so many great artists here. I think it certainly offers us an alternative perspective to growing up in a small town … It's very strange, different, but also a very beautiful and unique thing.

How do you hope the band can be socially conscious beyond music?

Jake: You imbue things that you're saying, that you're creating. You become those things. I think that's ultimately natural, habitual for us to emanate those things, project them.

We're looking at a very new generation, we're looking for new problems to solve. These are the things that we're concerning ourselves with, in a certain sense, but also advocating for, sexuality, equality, etc. This year has certainly been a whirlwind for many different understandings, how we as a society can understand new challenges. I think we do participate ourselves in some of those things outside of the music.

Zakk Cervini On Producing Yungblud, Finding Inspiration During Quarantine And Why Rock Might Roar Back After COVID-19

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Frank Zappa in 'Zappa,' a Magnolia Pictures release

Frank Zappa in Zappa, a Magnolia Pictures release

Photo: Roelof Kiers/Photo courtesy of Magnolia Pictures

News

Actor/Director Alex Winter Talks New Frank Zappa Documentary, 'Zappa': "It Was The Full Complexity Of The Man I Wanted To Show"

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For the film, Winter and his team combed through more than 1,000 hours of footage to capture the complicated essence of one of the most groundbreaking rock experimentalists
Jordan Blum
GRAMMYs
Dec 30, 2020 - 12:13 pm

Few 20th-century musicians have amassed as unique and influential a catalog as two-time GRAMMY winner Frank Zappa. Between the late 1960s and the early 1990s, Zappa's multifaceted artistry knew no bounds. He was a one-of-a-kind musical genius whose attitude and approach rubbed off on countless creative followers.

Of course, he was far more than that, too. As the recent documentary Zappa lays out, the singer/songwriter and composer was an adamant denouncer of censorship, which led to him morally testifying before the U.S. Senate in 1985, as well as a fearless critic of social, spiritual, and political hypocrisies. Plus, his collaborators and loved ones knew him as a highly demanding yet devoted bandleader and a flawed but loving family man.

There were many professional and personal dimensions of Zappa, and the actor-documentarian Alex Winter—best-known as the amiable, peace-loving goofball Ted Logan in the Bill & Ted film franchise—did an exceptional job capturing it all. Zappa, which arrived in theaters and on-demand last month, provides the most heartfelt and robust examination of the man on film to date.

Winter and his crew could have been overwhelmed by the sheer amount of footage available to them—more than 1,000 hours, to hear him tell it. However, his goal to spin a compelling yarn for a universal audience rather than create a footage-dump for superfans kept him focused.  "It was important for us to tell a certain story," Winter tells GRAMMY.com. "We found so much great stuff that [spoke] to his inner life. It motivated us to stay on track."

GRAMMY.com spoke with Winter about what sparked his interest in telling Zappa's story and why Zappa's legacy endures almost 30 years after his untimely death.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Let's begin by discussing how you discovered Zappa. What are your favorite songs or albums by him?

I first became aware of him on Saturday Night Live. I have an older brother [Stephen] who's a musician, so I knew the music. As I got older, I became much more appreciative of his music, especially the expansiveness of it. That fact that he wasn't just a rock guitar player or even just a rock musician.

As for specific records, [1969's] Hot Rats had the biggest impact on me, and then I came to love his orchestral music, such as [1993's] The Yellow Shark.

Those are great ones! What attracted you to making this documentary?

I was interested in who he was as an artist and his relationship to his art, his fellow artists, and the politics of the time. It was the full complexity of the man I wanted to show—more than just a standard music documentary or a standard cradle-to-grave biopic.

That's one of the best aspects of Zappa: it even appeals to people who aren't necessarily fans of his. There's a lot of pathos to it, with sadness beneath the happier aspects.

Yeah, I mean, his life was tragic in that he died so prematurely [in 1993, from prostate cancer]. He faced the consequences for living as he did, and the film tries to chart the ups and downs of his life in that way. It's not just a celebration but also an examination of what it means to be an artist.

Read: How 1970 Became The Year Of Syd Barrett

You also interviewed former Zappa musicians who express that he was a bit of a tough leader at times, but that's what was needed to get the band to perform properly.

Right. I wanted to get at the root of what was—not unfairly, but maybe superficially, a reputation he had for being a martinet. I had a suspicion that the artists I would speak to would paint a more comprehensive picture of how he was. 

I was so grateful for those interviews and for having a sense of a man who had a very specific vision, yes, but who also was extremely collaborative with his fellow musicians, with his family, and with his audience. He was very curious about a broader view and working with others.

I didn't have a problem getting to people, either, and I only wanted people I felt were able to speak vehemently about having worked with Zappa and experiencing his inner life.

Zappa is far from your first documentary. What did you learn from doing those prior films that influenced this one? How was making Zappa a different process?

There was an aspect of this far beyond anything I'd done before: the sheer amount of media that we had to work with. We had to preserve a lot of the media that was in Zappa's home. Then, we had to go through all that media [laughs] and figure out what we wanted to use.

We benefited from doing a preservation project to get that media into shape, which took us a couple of years. It allowed us to figure out exactly what to choose. I think that at least 98 percent of the archival footage we used has never been seen or heard before.

Oh, wow.

There was an exhaustive process of rebuilding things to make them coherent. Sometimes, we'd find a piece a film from one time and then search for the right sound and sync it up somehow. Some of that took years, and it was like finding the Holy Grail when we finally located the proper audio for a piece of visual that we wanted to use. It's been an extraordinary journey, to put it mildly [laughs].

From what I understand, the Zappa family—and especially his late wife, Gail—were very private and particular about who would get access to the archives, vaults, et cetera. I'm sure other people have tried to see and hear those things before but couldn't. I wonder what led to you being able to look through all of that.

Well, I pitched Gail a way of telling the story, and she just happened to like it. Many people had come to her asking to make much more standard music docs or legacy docs about Frank, sort of ignoring the broader spectrum of who he was and what he represented.

I was only interested in telling a story about him as an artist and as a man pitted against his time, dealing with the consequences of committing to living a particular life. That's what she wanted someone to tell. I didn't know that when I pitched her, so I was glad. I expected her to tell me to get lost, to be honest with you.

I guess it's all about the angle of the story.

She was notoriously a tough cookie, and I knew that going in. There was a good chance that she wasn't going to like what I wanted to do. That would've been fine. It would've been twenty minutes out of my life instead of six years.

Frank Zappa in 'Zappa,' a Magnolia Pictures release

Frank Zappa in Zappa, a Magnolia Pictures release | Photo: Roelof Kiers/Photo courtesy of Magnolia Pictures

What were some of the most surprising things that you learned about him? What did you have to cut?

We had the mandate to tell a very specific story, and that gave us parameters. It helped us weed out the stuff that didn't fit. We had over 1,000 hours of unseen and unheard media; we could've made a 10-part series, no problem. I wasn't distracted by it, though. Mike Nichols, the editor, and I were pretty determined to craft a very coherent narrative, so we didn't worry about many of the media we had. Let it get used by the next people who come along. [Laughs].

Have you discovered any bands that are inspired by Zappa?

Oh, there are so many, from classical musicians to pop and rock musicians. Artists like Beck, “Weird Al" Yankovic and Weezer. The list could just go on and on. There aren't too many popular bands who don't have a Zappa influence, even if they don't know it. Also, a lot of avant-garde composers.

Zappa had one of the most successful Kickstarter campaigns in history. How has the reception been so far?

The reaction has been overwhelmingly positive. It's a film that I wanted to see out in the world, and I believe that Zappa's story was extraordinary and untold. I was hopeful that others would want to see it, too.

I was never a fanatic—more just a fan. This movie is aimed at anyone who likes an interesting and compelling story. That was the gamble we took when we set out to make it, and I couldn't be happier with how it's being received. 

Director John McDermott Talks New Jimi Hendrix Documentary, 'Music, Money, Madness … Jimi Hendrix in Maui'

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